Sports Reference Blog
24 Things You Didn’t Know About Kobe Bryant
Posted by Jonah Gardner on April 7, 2016
In a little under a week, Kobe Bryant will walk onto the floor of the Staples Center for the final time as a player. For good and ill, no player has come to define the post-Jordan, pre-LeBron generation more than Kobe. However, Kobe's off-floor notoriety hasn't always matched his on-the-court achievements. Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, and Dirk Nowitzki all have more Win Shares than Kobe. Steve Nash has more MVP awards and Allen Iverson has spent more years leading the NBA in Points Per Game.
Yet it's Kobe who has come to be the face of the late 1990s and early 2000s in the NBA. He's proof of the adage that the opposite of love isn't hate, but indifference. Unlike Duncan, who never generated strong feelings, or Dirk, beloved but never feared or loathed, Kobe is a player who was fiercely debated and scrutinized. His game, and your feelings about it, say a lot about what you're looking for in a basketball player and where you see the NBA going.
So, as his career winds down, let's take a look back. I scoured the Basketball-Reference database and found 24 facts, in bold, that shed light on both sides and explain dig into Kobe's complicated, nuanced legacy as an NBA player.
Kobe's Scoring
We'll start with something you probably do know. Kobe scored. A lot. He'll finish 3rd all-time in points, behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Karl Malone.
Of course, Kobe's scoring comes with the caveat that he played a lot. Bryant is one of 5 players with 20 years in the NBA, one more than Malone and five more than Michael Jordan, who is in 4th in points. If you look at PPG, Kobe is 12th all-time, impressive but more in line with how he ranked as a scorer.
It's also notable because Kobe had fewer career PPG than his contemporary, newly-minted HoF Inductee Allen Iverson. AI also had 4 30-PPG seasons, as opposed to Kobe's 3. Iverson's scoring edge over Kobe, however, is also related to the fact that AI played so many more minutes than Kobe (he had a nearly Wilt-esque 11 seasons with 40 or more Minutes Per Game).
So, Iverson played more but Kobe played longer. Using the Player Comparison Finder, we can adjust for both. Here's what their per 36 minutes stats look like (along with Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady, who are also part of this cohort) through 2009-10, AI's last season:
| Rk | Player | From | FG% | TRB | AST | STL | BLK | PTS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Kobe Bryant | 1997 | .455 | 5.2 | 4.6 | 1.5 | 0.5 | 24.8 |
| 2 | Vince Carter | 1999 | .445 | 5.2 | 4.0 | 1.2 | 0.7 | 22.2 |
| 3 | Allen Iverson* | 1997 | .425 | 3.3 | 5.4 | 1.9 | 0.2 | 23.3 |
| 4 | Tracy McGrady | 1998 | .435 | 6.2 | 4.9 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 22.4 |
So, of the four, Kobe was the most proficient scorer on a per-minute basis, as well as the most efficient. But, AI was actually the best playmaker of the bunch (hold that thought on Kobe's playmaking). And, of course, T-Mac got boards.
So who was the best scoring 2-guard of his era, the true heir to Jordan? As much as I love Iverson, Kobe's case is quite strong.
Kobe's Rings
Everyone knows, by heart, the most popular argument by Kobe's legion of fans: "Count the rings." And yet, if you dig a little deeper, Kobe's 23 wins in NBA Finals games are actually only good for a tie for 8th most since 1963. He doesn't even have the most Finals wins of players on those Lakers teams; Derek Fisher has 24, thanks to his stint with the Oklahoma City Thunder.
What's more, Kobe never led any Championship team in Win Shares. It won't come as any surprise that the 1999-2000 Lakers, 2000-2001 Lakers, and 2001-2002 Lakers were all led by Shaq, however, Pau Gasol had the most Win Shares on both the 2008-09 and 2009-10 Lakers. Perhaps just as much of a problem is Kobe did lead the 2003-04 Lakers and 2007-08 Lakers in Win Shares, both teams that ultimately lost in the Finals (although, technically Pau had more Win Shares per 48 Minutes than Kobe, suggesting he was actually their best player, and just didn't come over till around the trade deadline).
Kobe did lead the Lakers in playoff Win Shares in 2001 (barely) and 2009, but this still shades Kobe's case when it comes to the rings. For comparison's sake, Dwyane Wade made 5 Finals, 2 fewer than Kobe, but he had the most WS on the 2006 Heat, meaning he was the best player on a championship team more than Kobe was. Dirk made 2 NBA Finals as his team's WS leader, like Kobe, but he won one of those times. It's almost like basketball is a team sport and requires several very good players to win!
Kobe's Playmaking
Of course, you're probably also familiar with the biggest knock on Kobe: He's selfish. It's an image that Kobe hasn't seemed particularly worried about, and has even played up by spending the last couple of years as an unrepentant gunner. But the stats don't back it up. By a lot of measures, Kobe is one of the best assisting 2-guards ever.
Among players listed at 6'6" or taller, Kobe has the 12th highest career Assist Percentage, better than famously generous distributors like Chris Webber and Grant Hill. His 86 10-assist games are 10 more than Michael Jordan had in his career.
It's not that Kobe didn't chuck, it's that the Lakers got them a man who can do both. Kobe had 13 seasons with a Usage Rate over 30% and an Assist Rate over 20%, the most by any player since 1973, the first year we have those stats. LeBron seems likely to surpass that, but it's not a sure thing. And D-Wade, the only other player in double-digits, almost certainly won't.
That even includes 2005-06, the year when Kobe had the highest USG% of all-time. Even then, he still managed to have a 24.1% Assist Rate, diming to Smush Parker and Kwame Brown
Kobe's Rebounding
It's no surprise that a 6'6" man who spent 20 years in the NBA has the 3rd most career rebounds by a G, G-F, or F-G, however Kobe's rebounding ability goes beyond just raw counting stats. His rebounding percentage from 1997-2012 is 15th among G and G-F with at least 10,000 MP in that time period. To put it in perspective, his TRB% of 8.2 was just one point of off Rajon Rondo in that time span, and ahead of both Wade and Russell Westbrook (though Westbrook didn't really become a the menace on the boards he is now until 2013).
Kobe's...Efficiency?
Efficiency isn't a word that we'd associate with Kobe, the NBA's leader in career missed Field Goals, but, in his own way, Kobe was about as efficient as you could want from someone with his level of scoring responsibility (at least, if you exclude whatever alien race Stephen Curry belongs to).
Of the 24 players who took at least 15,000 FGAs in their career, Kobe's True Shooting Percentage ranks a respectable 10th, one spot ahead of Jerry West, and his Effective Field Goal Percentage is 8th among players who averaged 19 or more Field Goal Attempts per game
Efficiency is a bit of a moving target depending on volume. The bar for a creator like Kobe to be a good scorer is different from what we'd expect from someone like Shane Battier.
It was also a different time. Even with all the shooting, Kobe's eFG% was better than the NBA average 5 times in his career, and it was within .01 7 more:
Lastly, Kobe was great at drawing the most efficient shot there is: Free Throws. No wing took more Free Throw Attempts in their career than Kobe.
Kobe's Peak
The focus on his championships means that Kobe's peak, oddly, is underrated. His peak mostly fell during the barren post-Shaq, pre-Pau era, but we shouldn't ignore how dominant Kobe was in that era because he didn't win it all.
Kobe's age 27-29 seasons combined rank 14th in WS and 12th in Player Efficiency Rating among players that age, much higher than his career rankings of 18th in WS and 25th in PER.
Expanding it out to ages 21-34, Kobe ranks just as strong. He's 12th in WS, 14th in PER, and 12th in Value Over Replacement Player.
Again, this contradicts the narrative. We think of Kobe as sticking around the NBA to pad his career stats (and make an absurd amount of money). But, while his counting stats have gone up, it's also watered down some of his numbers with below-average seasons.
Kobe in the Playoffs
While the Rings argument is somewhat specious, there's no denying Kobe's greatness in the playoffs. Kobe is 8th all-time in Playoff WS and, from 2000, our first year of plus/minus, to 2012, his last playoff appearance, Kobe has 105 playoff games with a positive plus/minus, trailing only Derek Fisher in that period of time (and, notably, leading Duncan).
You also might have heard that Kobe's not afraid to take the big shot. Since 2000, he's taken 122 Field Goal Attempts in the last 2:00 of the 4th quarter or OT when the game was within 5 points. In other words, that's 122 crunch time shots. Since 2000, only LeBron has taken more.
Not only that, but you might have noticed Kobe's Field Goal Percentage of .418 on those shots. You have to scroll all the way down to KD or Ray Allen, who've taken half as many clutch shots as Kobe, to find a better FG%. LeBron has a claim, especially considering that he likely has several more playoff runs ahead of him, but for now, Kobe has an excellent argument for the best clutch shooter of the 2000s.
Kobe's Advanced Stats
Maybe you aren't impressed by traditional stats and want to see what Basketball-Reference's play-by-play data says. Well, since 2000, Kobe's teams have been 6.8 points per 100 possessions better with him on the floor. The Lakers' eFG% is 20 points higher, and, despite Kobe's poor defensive reputation in recent years, their Defensive Rating is basically unchanged. Oh, and in the playoffs, that plus/minus figure goes up to 8.1 points per 100 when Kobe's on the floor.
The debate over Kobe's legacy seems to have cooled off in recent months. This can't be how Kobe wanted to go out, adulated but not feared, celebrated because he poses no real threat anymore. As a competitor and a person, Kobe seemed to thrive off the hate. We may disagree about the breadth and reach of Kobe's legacy, but as these stats show, the fact of that legacy can't be debated.
Excellent Work !! Thanks
A few more facts for you.
In the 48 years before Kobe the Lakers missed the playoffs 4 times. In the 20 years since Kobe they have missed the playoffs 4 more times.
Kobe wins titles at the same rate the Lakers have won titles their whole existence.
Kobe makes the playoffs and Finals at a lower rate than the Lakers franchise has.
Kobe's winning isn't a product of Kobe but a product of the best organization in Basketball.
Players like Duncan and Jordan are truly special because they won at the same rate as Kobe but on teams that had never won before and didn't know how to win.
How many of those missed playoff years was Kobe healthy?
None!!!!
Kobe played more than 60 games in 2 of those seasons.
So the Lakers didn't have injuries in those first 48 years?
That's the thing though, demanding $25 million when your only worth $6 million means when you're hurt your team has nothing else. The sign of a true team player. Guys like Dirk and Duncan took less because their game had went down and they care about their organization.
Being durable and being able to stay healthy is part of the value a player has. Someone like Kobe can't be counted on, how many games does he miss compared to the guys people like to compare him to? Jordan, Lebron and Duncan
"Kobe played more than 60 games in 2 of those seasons."
The first season of which featured Chris Mihm at center and Chucky Atkins at point guard and the second of which can be explained by 37-year old Kobe having suffered from 3 season-ending injuries and 2 second-year players and 1 rookie being starters, none of which are named Earvin Johnson.
The Lakers were star-studded enough that injuries didn't really matter. We're talking about a team that played 2 hall-of-famers most of the time. Mikan, Pollard and Mikkelsen. West, Baylor and Chamberlain. Magic, Kareem and Worthy. Shaq and Kobe. For the better part of 66 years, that was the case. If one star went down, the other one could pick up the slack.
Because the 2012-13 super-team blew up in Mitch Kupchak's face, that was no longer the case after 2013. Unsurprisingly, Gasol and 39-year old Nash couldn't lead the squad to the playoffs when Kobe went down. Neither could Lin and Boozer for that matter. It's not Kobe's fault the squad is bad. Expecting 37-year old Kobe after suffering 3 season-ending injuries to lead the Lakers to the playoffs is unrealistic, to understate the case.
Duncan and Nowitzki took paycuts because their teams were playoff contenders and had at least an outside shot at the championship. You tell me the teams the Lakers put together in the last 3 years had any shot of making the finals. No point in taking a paycut if nothing's going to happen, is it? There's only 1 banner hanging in American Airlines Center, by the way, so it's not doing the Mavericks a whole lot of good.
Oh yeah, sure, Kobe suffering from an Achilles tear isn't because he was a shooting guard who played 38.6 minutes per game in 78 games at age 34, but it's because he "can't be counted on". Never mind Duncan hasn't averaged 34 minutes since 2008, Jordan played 9000 less minutes than Kobe by 2013 and LeBron isn't even 34 yet. It's because Kobe is more fragile. Believe what you want.
"how many games does he miss compared to the guys people like to compare him to? Jordan, Lebron and Duncan"
This is an insane statement. Feel free to click to Duncan and LeBron's pages and see how many seasons they played all 82 games.
Well Duncan came in the year after Kobe and still has played 40 something games more.
Lebron has missed 10% or more of the season only once in his career but Kobe has missed 10% or more of the season half his career.
Kobe just isn't as durable and doesn't have the ability to not get injured.
Between the amount of more games missed than Lebron and less minutes per game Lebron gives his team an average of 500 minutes a year to his team.
Doesn't matter how good you are if you have a hard time getting on the court.
Half the teams make the playoffs in Basketball. If you are one of the greatest of all time you should be taking you team to the playoffs every year regardless of who is on your team.
Since Lebron has been 20 he hasn't missed the playoffs. How many times did Duncan miss the playoffs? Jordan?
Heck Lebron was turning guys like Mo Williams into all stars and winning 60 games with scrubs.
This is why Kobe is much close to being the 50th greatest player of all time than 1.
Kobe is a tremendous player but severely overrated by his fans. Kobe didn't out pace what the Lakers franchise has always done.
Like the article says, Kobe has never even led a championship team in win share.
Kobe played 20 seasons and was only named MVP once.
Kobe played in 7 finals and was only named the best player 2 times. 5 other times other players provided more for their teams.
Kobe only won when he had a big man down low to take pressure off of him.
How many times has Kobe quit on his team and refused to shoot because they are getting blown out or people complained he shoot to much?
Again severely overrated. If he would have stayed on Charlotte he would be sitting on 0 rings and people wouldn't even speak about him in the same breath as player the likes of Wilkins and Drexler
So what you're saying is that even though LeBron and Duncan played more games and started practically every game in their careers, they still have less minutes than Kobe. Thanks for proving my point that Kobe played far too many minutes.
Kobe missed the playoffs in 1 season before he ruptured his Achilles in 2013. If you want to hold post-Achilles injury Kobe to the same standard as the guy who scored 81, this discussion is nothing more than a waste of time.
Duncan had at least 2 of the following on his roster at all times: David Robinson, Manu Ginobili or Tony Parker. Unless you intend to tell me Chucky Atkins is the same as Tony Parker, I believe it is safe to say Duncan had more help than 2004-05 Kobe. Even LeBron had more help than 04-05 Kobe; Does Ilgauskas look like Chris Mihm to you? Orlando Woolridge averaged 17.6 ppg with Chicago. He's obviously not Michael Jordan, but he's not some scrub.
The last time the MVP was awarded to a team that finished below 50 wins in the regular season was 1983. Kobe led the league in scoring by over 400 points and the Lakers finished 45-37. The next season, he led the league in scoring by over 300 points and the Lakers finished 42-40. Of course Kobe was only going to win 1 MVP when his teams were so bad. Ilgauskas and Mo Williams are still better than Kwame Brown and Smush Parker.
So you're telling me Kobe is overrated because he couldn't win rings at a higher rate than the Laker franchise, which throughout history basically swam in hall-of-famers. So he's overrated because he doesn't win stuff faster than... Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar? And he's somehow worse for not immediately retiring after rupturing his Achilles? What?
Kobe won 2 Finals MVPs in 7 appearances, sure. Are you going to blame Kobe for O'Neal being the second coming of Wilt Chamberlain? For the record, LeBron also won 2 Finals MVPs in 7 appearances, except he won 3 less championships. Jordan won 6 Finals MVPs in 6 appearances, but why the hell else do you think people call him GOAT?
"Kobe only won when he had a big man down low to take pressure off of him." Likewise, Jordan only won when the best small forward in the league was on his team. LeBron needed a hall-of-fame combo guard. What's your point?
Oh, I don't know, you're claiming that happened, prove it yourself?
Long article. The conclusions reached are more-or-less correct. I'll need to read through it more carefully again. But, most of the things looked at aren't really that valid. When Fisher looks better than Kobe in anything, but overall playoff experience, how valid can that stat be? And even Pau, to a lesser extent. That's great Pau has more WS at times, but who cares? Are people really still trying to say he was better than Kobe on those titles? Pau was a 1X AS and 0-12 in the playoffs in 7 seasons in MEM. He never made an all-nba team until he joined Kobe. I'd say Pau is playing pretty good this year, but he's playing with another AS-Butler and a decent cast after that, in the weaker East, and they're going to miss the playoffs. Why is he really thought to be so good according to some people?
Fireballs, first off let's get the real facts straights: 5 titles in 20 years is better than 11 titles in 48 years, and much better than the 6 titles in previous 42 years right before Kobe. Duncan/Jordan had amazing teams around them almost every year, much like James does now. The same couldn't be said for Kobe.
Kobe didn't demand anything from LAL. They offered, he accepted. He probably makes at least 100million for them each year, and his salary didn't hamper the team.
Kobe is top 10 all-time in combined reg season/playoff games and MP. To say he isn't durable is ridiculous.
Now, yes, 4 playoffs missed. Hmm, let's see what years those were. 2005-garbage team, and then 2014-2016-years he shouldn't even be playing with completely incompetent casts. If James replaced Kobe 14-16, LAL still misses the playoffs. And nobody else in the league would've made the playoffs with his 06-07 casts. Look at Duncan this year, SA is an elite team when he sits. They'd be the favorites to win the title without Duncan if GS wasn't going off this year. Kobe's never had this type of stability. Talk about LAL's organization all you want, but SA has been better overall during Kobe's career. So much more nonsense from Fireballs, no need to reply. He's all over the place. It's the typical Kobe double standard. Blame him for bad teammates, and then don't give him much credit for having good teammates
James had best team in the league in 09 and 10 and didn't even make the finals once in weaker East. Duncan has missed the finals 4x when his teams have been the #1 seed. How many times has this happened to Kobe? Zero
Ever heard of making your teammates better? Pippen wasn't supposed to be a all time great. Most teams didn't even want Rodman because they thought he was a nut case. People said Ron Harper was washed up. Nobody thought Kerr or Paxson would be hitting game winners in the finals.
Ginobili was a second round pick that every team pasted up, some twice and Parker was a later first round pick. Then they had guys like patty Mills or George Hill. Duncan allowed teammates to flourish and didn't need to be in the spotlight to win titles.
Remember Duncan got the same amount of titles in one less year for a team that never win titles before. Won multiple MVPs.
If you win titles on the Yankees it's not nearly as impressive as doing it on the Cubs.
Kobe didn't make teammates better. When they are stacked people say it's all Kobe and how great he is but when they lose its because the guys around him weren't good enough. That's why they went and got Malone and Payton back in the day. They want all stars at every position to win.
BTW before Kobe the Lakers averaged going to the finals almost every other year in their existence.
Before Duncan or Jordan no titles. It's impressive when you actually take your organization to new heights, no be on the clock for the worse years in team history.
I know soft Kobe was hurt yet again. His monster contract hampered the team for years. Where the Lakers our now is soley due to Kobe, his arrogance, selfishness and lack of love for his organization and fans of the team.
I could say similar things about Kobe's teammates? People actually said Vujacic would score 15ppg with James. Look at how his career ended up. Look at the 94 Bulls. Grant/Armstrong make their only AS team, and CHI only wins 2 fewer games than in 93. Coincidence? I think not. Most of Kobe's teammates played their best ball when they played with him. Shaq, Odom, Pau, Smush, Kwame, etc.
Parker/Ginobili are future HOFers. I'm failing to miss your point. Who cares where they were drafted? Duncan didn't even talk to Parker during his rookie year. Hmm, great teammate?
Duncan's had fewer team success, one less finals, and that's with him playing a much-diminished role in 14. And he's had much better teams overall. Duncan's had a competent, at least near-contender team every season. You could say only 11-12 seasons at most for Kobe. MVPs are most subjective measure in the nba. Kobe should have 4-5 minimum. The media votes for MVP in the nba, and most of the media are boneheads. And Kobe is still 11th all-time in MVP shares. He was an MVP candidate every year from 01-13, other than 05, which he should've been. Media thought PJ Brown was better than him that year for some reason.
Actually, they say the exact opposite like you're doing. If LAL stacked, which actually almost never happened, it's Kobe's teammates. Even during Shaq's time, LAL usually had nothing after Shaq/Kobe. Payton sucked in 04. Malone was an old man, and injured in playoffs. After that, George/Fisher? Nothing.
Again, what proof? Kobe soft? Have you even watched the nba before? You might want to actually look at some real stats sometime, and see how much Kobe played relative to other players.
Also, newsflash, the nba doesn't work like MLB. There's a salary cap for the nba. And any time, MIA for example, can become great instantly if they get 1-2 stars. No one single player can win on his own, but James back in CLE with 2 other stars and a competent cast after that, of course, they're going to be good. And with no other contenders in the East, much easier time making finals than in the West. Durant/Westbrook in OKC. Only one final for them, but if your team is lucky enough to draft two future top 5 players, they will be a very good team regardless of who else is on their team. Stop saying that just because it's LAL, then it should be a given Kobe should win. You lose credibility.
[…] why most consider him one of the greatest guards in the history of the game. These accomplishments should be acknowledged, and chances are you've been hearing about them a lot this […]
I do consider him one of the greatest guards of all time. It's just recently here in Los Angeles there has been lots of talk about Kobe literally being one of the top 10 greatest players ever or even the best Laker.
Magic is the best Laker ever and Kobe isn't in the top 20 ever. Kobe was a tremendous player but since he is retiring people have gotten all lovie on him and have forgotten that Kobe was a chucker who never even managed to shot 47% from the field one year, let alone 50% one year. I just want people to be realistic about his career.
Again is Kobe would have stayed on the Hornet's Kobe would have zero rings and would be considered a volume scorer, ball hog, stat stuffer and turnover machine.
Kobe is lucky that he played on the best Basketball franchise ever who would bring in guys like Shaq and Gasol and Odom and Howard to lead.
That's why Kobe couldn't win with Howard. Howard didn't know how to be the man and lead to where Kobe could be Robin. Kobe is a awesome Robin but sucks as Batman. This is plain as day by looking at the years Kobe led the team in win shares they didn't win titles. When someone else was there to play better than Kobe and lead the team in win shares to take all the pressure off Kobe he can win.
SMH @ Kobe fans who call themselves Laker fans.
Meanwhile, Kobe Bryant has 10 seasons with FG%>45% and PPG>25. The only guard with more is Jordan with 11 seasons. For reference, Dwyane Wade has 4, Vince Carter has 3But sure, cherry pick the fact that he never shot 47% and ignore the fact that he shot >45% for 10 seasons.
And if Jerry Buss wasn't a genius of a glory boy, Magic would have went to the Bucks or the Sonics and be crucified for averaging 4 turnovers. I can make up hypotheticals too, what's your point?
Gasol came from being the undisputed leader at Memphis to the second option on the Lakers, during which his win shares per 48 skyrocketed from .129 to .239. Considering Kobe's win shares per 48 remained constant, I think it's fairly obvious who was making whose life easier. I like Odom as much as the next Laker fan, but Odom had at no point come close to leading the Lakers, whether with per-game stats, advanced stats or leadership. It's fairly self-evident.
Dwight Howard was a failure and it was purely his fault. This guy underperformed so badly Kobe had to tear his Achilles just to drag the Lakers into the playoffs. He wanted to post up when Gasol was and is far and away a better post player than him. He didn't want to run pick-and-rolls when Steve Nash was the point guard. The same Steve Nash who turned Amar'e Stoudemire into an all-star by running pick-and-rolls.
His only shot at being the man was at Orlando when Stan van Gundy built a four-out shooting team around him, which was promptly obliterated by none other than Kobe Bryant and the Lakers. Now he's stuck on the Rockets as a third/fourth option. He has no business being the man and didn't have any business being the man on the Lakers.
SMH @ condescending people who think they're right.
So are you shaking your head at yourself or didn't read what I posted or both?
I said Kobe was a tremendous player but not a top 20 all time great. You bring up Wade and Carter who are a also not top 20 players all time so I don't get your point.
Kobe played 20 years. Can you give me a list of other shooting guards that played 20 years? It seems like you are comparing longevity but you are trying to dress it up as something else.
For example Jordan played 13 years and did it 11 times and Kobe played 20 and did it 10 times. Huge difference. Per year Wade did it more often than Kobe.
Kobe played 20 years and went to 7 finals but has a total of 3 MVPs overall. Good for a really good player but kinda sad for a supposed all time great.
Jordan played 13 and 6 and had a total of 11 MVPs.
Kobe is much much closer to wade and Carter than Jordan or Magic.
Btw when the Magic went to the finals Howard was far and away the best player on the team and it wasn't even close. When Kobe was far and away the best player on the team they didn't even make the playoffs and if they did they lost 3-1 series leads in the first round.
Btw that's been my point. Yeah Gasols win share went up. When you are on the best franchise in Basketball you are more successful. Now just imagine if Gasol had spent 20 years on the Lakers and Kobe only got a hand full or years on the Lakers. Career statuses would be switched
there has always been haters and there will always be Neils.
Wade did it 4 times in 12 years and Kobe did it 10 times in 20 years. I have no idea how can you conclude Wade did it more often than Kobe. That's not taking into account the fact that Kobe cannot be considered the same player after the Achilles injury, before which he was a legitimate superstar at age 34.
I brought up Wade and Carter because they are also notable scoring guards in the same era. I could have used McGrady or Iverson, who rank out even worse; Iverson has 1 in 13 years. Which is to say, Kobe scored at an accuracy and volume only matched by Jordan. I'd say that's pretty good.
MVPs are voted on as awards rather than statistical achievements, and are therefore susceptible to bias. There's a reason why no one on a sub-50 win team has won the MVP since 1981. You think that didn't hurt Kobe's case while scoring 35.4 points on a 45-37 team?
Yes, I know that Howard was far and away the best player on the 2008-09 Magic team. Have you actually considered the fact that the Magic squad had a far better supporting cast than the 04-07 Lakers? You know, Jameer Nelson might be better than Smush Parker.
No you're not, the Lakers are 17-65, the organization doesn't do anything if the players are bad. Pau Gasol's play improved because he was traded from a 22-win team to a 56-win team. Of course his performance was going to improve when the SG was perpetually double teamed. Considering Kobe led the team in points and assists, I think it's safe to say Kobe was the first option and therefore led the team.
"Kobe played in 7 finals and was only named the best player 2 times. 5 other times other players provided more for their teams."
Could say the same for your choice as the best Laker ever. Magic went to 9 finals and only has 3 Finals MVPs. By your logic 6 other times "other players provided more for their teams" than Magic. Other Laker greats like Kareem and West do even worse by your standards.
Same for Bird (2 Finals MVPs in 5 appearances) and Lebron (2 in 6 tries).
BTW, why do you keep saying Jordan played 13 years? Still conveniently forgetting the Wizards years? In that case perhaps we can also deny that the years after Kobe ruptured his Achilles ever happened since you've decided to only include the "good years".
Fireballs is obviously trolling. Pretty sad, especially since Kobe just scored 60 points to bring LAL from a 15-pt. deficit to win his final game. There's only been 32 60-pt games since 1964, and only 3 players have done it multiple times: Wilt(7), Kobe(6), and Jordan(4) for the regular season.
Yep, Jordan played 15 years. Jordan also entered the nba at age 21, in a higher scoring, better efficiency era, and he was able to shoot as much as he wanted while not being #2 to anyone. Kobe came to the nba at age 18, came off the bench for 2 years since he was backing up an AS-Eddie Jones, Shaq was the best player on LAL at the time, and the nba was a lower scoring, lower efficiency, better defensive league at the time. Even one of these things is huge, let alone several differences between Kobe/Jordan. Kobe was a legit MVP candidate every year from 00-13. That's 14 straight years. Maybe only Kareem can say that as well.
Kobe should have at least 4-5 MVPs if the voters knew what they were doing and weren't overall biased against him. MVP voting is often a sham. Definitely 06, 07, 08. He was a strong case for 03, 04, 05. And a really strong case in 09, 10. He showed who really was the king those 2 years as James' Cavs were the top regular season team each year and failed to make even one finals in the weaker East.
LAL made the playoffs every year from 03-13 when Kobe was the best player, except 05. No other player in the league could've led LAL to the playoffs in 06/07 with Smush, Kwame, and Walton playing high minutes. And what does losing in 7 games to PHO in 06 have to do with anything? Kobe's cast that year absolutely stunk. To get that close was amazing. Unlucky for him, the rules changed to best of 7 in 1st round. LAL was going nowhere that year, and PHO was a star-studded top team.
Kobe was the new Jordan, people just don't want to except it. Kobe was the more skilled, more talented (even Phil Jackson agrees) more polished basketball player. You simply can't compare stats from different era's and make any fair and intelligent claims.
But just like Usain Bolt would out run Carl Lewis and Carl Lewis would out run Jesse Owens,......Kobe was a better pure basketball player than Michael Jordan.
I don't count a guy coming back from retirement for the last 17 games of the season as a season.
Yeah Magic went to 9 Finals and only got the MVP in 3. But that was in 13 years compared to Kobe only getting 2 in 20 years. On top of that Magic got 3 MVPs in 13 years compared to Kobes 1. So in 20 years Kobe got those 3 MVPs while Magic got 6 in 13 years.
Bird played 13 years and got 5 total MVPs while Kobe got 3.
Kareem? 18 years 8 total MVPs and Kobe got 3.
Kobe getting 60? One of the Lakers PR ladies was on the Max and Marcellus show here in Los Angeles and openly admitted the Jazz played no defense on Kobe. It was like Farve falling to the ground for Strahan. That same night Curry scored like 12 less points on half the shots.
Part of basketball skills is defense. You don't lead the league in scoring and win the MVP and get defensive player of the year all in the same year unless you are one of the greatest of all time, that's why Kobe hasn't done it.
Kobe's offense was 80% of Jordans, but his defense was only 25% of Jordans.
BTW Curry locked up the MVP this year, the question isn't who is going to get it but if it will be unanimous. If Kobe separated himself from the rest of his colleagues like all time greats do in their prime then there would have been no denying Kobe the MVP. The MVP isn't just about chucking shots and that's what some people (usually Kobe fans) fail to realize.
So you conveniently discount the season where Jordan starts all 10 games in the playoffs and the Bulls get smashed by the Magic in the 2nd round. I could see why you would want to do that.
Kobe got 60 because he repeatedly shot over Jazz defenders who failed miserably at contesting his shots. You can watch the highlight reel, or you can continue to live your own fantasy. I don't give a damn that Curry scored 46 points on 24 shots, can he do that at age 37 on an atrocious squad?
Kobe made 12 all-defensive teams in 20 years, Jordan made 9 in 15. That's the same rate. You can contest All-Defensive team voting all you want, I could say the same about MVP voting. It's pretty obvious it's biased against superstars on weaker teams, and of course the Suns were going to do better than the Lakers when the roster is that much better. I never thought I'd type this, but you're overrating the 05-06 Lakers squad.
Oh, and averaging 35.4 PPG "isn't just about chucking shots", it's the 8th highest scoring season in the history of the league and the 2nd highest ever since the 3-point line was implemented. Perhaps Chamberlain, Jordan and Rick Barry only finished in the top 7 because they were overrated "chuckers".
Francis, Fireballs is just another clueless Kobe hater. He doesn't even understand the basics.
When he talks about rates, that's great, but just because someone can do it every year for 4 years straight doesn't mean that he can do it even once more in the next X amount of years. It's the same thing with efficiency on a per-minute basis. Just because someone can get you 8pts/8rebs on 55% shooting in 20 minutes, doesn't mean that rate will stay consistent with higher minutes. In fact, it's highly likely and very probable that it will go down for many reasons. And there's a limit to most things. It doesn't matter if Jordan played fewer seasons for whatever reasons, he didn't maximize his abilities. Kobe cashed in, and 12 all-defensive team selections is the most for a guard in nba history, 2nd most all-time for any position.
Also, defensive team voting is done by the coaches, who are the real experts. They aren't necessarily always correct, but there should be no bias with them or very little, and they know what they're talking about. The media votes for MVP and probably a few other things. It's absolutely ridiculous Kobe only has 1 MVP, same goes for Shaq. A lot of media members are completely clueless, have an agenda, and are very biased. 05 LAL were bad, even though Kobe still played great, though maybe not MVP great. But, he received 0 votes while PJ Brown got 1. That doesn't make any sense.