Sports Reference Blog
Has LeBron Been Better than Jordan in the Finals?
Posted by Jonah Gardner on June 2, 2016
Game 2 of the 2016 NBA Finals will be a big occasion. Of course, they'll all be big occasions, since they will determine who the NBA Champion is. But Game 2 will be especially momentous, because -- barring injury, suspension, or an abrupt announcement from Adam Silver that this year's Finals will last one game -- it will be the 35th of LeBron James' Finals' career, matching Michael Jordan's total.
As a human being on the Internet, you are no doubt aware of the fact that LeBron and MJ experienced different degrees of success in their time in the NBA Finals. MJ went 24-11 in his 35 games, winning all 6 titles that he played for. LeBron, on the other hand, is 13-20 in Finals games and 2-4 in series.
Their records speak for themselves, but that's also a pretty surface-level way of looking at it. LeBron was swept in 2007, but that team's second best player, by Win Shares, was Zydrunas Ilgauskas, a far cry from the Jordan's Hall-of-Fame sidekick Scottie Pippen. Should he get extra credit for that? Or what about last season, when the LeBron's Cleveland Cavaliers won two games against the Golden State Warriors with Timofey Mozgov as their second best player due to injuries to Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving?
In other words, despite the record, can one build a case that LeBron actually has been more accomplished, on an individual level, than MJ in the Finals? Let's dig a little deeper into the numbers.
First of all, here's how the two compare in terms of raw counting stats:
| Player | G | MP | FG | FGA | FG% | 3P | 3PA | 3P% | FT | FTA | FT% | ORB | DRB | TRB | AST | STL | BLK | TOV | PTS |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Michael Jordan | 35 | 1506 | 438 | 911 | .481 | 42 | 114 | .368 | 258 | 320 | .806 | 57 | 154 | 211 | 209 | 62 | 23 | 99 | 1176 |
| LeBron James | 33 | 1418 | 323 | 725 | .446 | 55 | 167 | .329 | 170 | 230 | .739 | 60 | 257 | 317 | 227 | 56 | 18 | 124 | 871 |
It's no surprise that MJ has a sizable lead in points or that LeBron has the edge in rebounds and assists. Prefer per game numbers? LeBron averaged 26.4 points per game, 6.9 assists per game, and 9.6 rebounds per game. For Jordan, those numbers are 33.6 PPG, 6.0 APG, and 6.0 RPG.
Either way you slice it, those are some epic numbers, but let's put them into context. Only one player has ever averaged a 33/6/6 over the course of a full season and, no surprise, it was Jordan himself. In the 1989-90 NBA season, MJ put up 33.6 PPG, 6.9 RPG, and 6.3 APG. Even more impressively, he did it playing only 39 minutes per game, as opposed to the 43 he would average in the Finals for his career. LeBron's 26/9/6 line is only slightly more common; it's happened eight times in NBA history, including three by Larry Bird and four by Oscar Robertson.
However, perhaps the most impressive thing about Jordan's scoring isn't the scoring itself; it's the efficiency. Despite the fact that he averaged over four more field goal attempts per game than James (26 vs 22), Michael actually shot better. His Finals effective field goal percentage was .504 and his true shooting percentage was .559. LeBron, on the other hand, has a career eFG% of .483 and his TS% is just .527. That's despite the fact that LeBron has been the more efficient shooter over the total course of his career.
It's difficult to appreciate just how good MJ's scoring in the Finals was just by looking at the numbers, but another look at regular season numbers shows how rare this kind of high-volume, high-efficiency shooting is. In addition to his efficiency, Jordan took a lot of shots; his career Finals usage rate was 36.1%. In NBA history, only one player, 2008-09 Dwyane Wade, has paired a USG% over 36 with an eFG% over 50.
But what LeBron lacks in scoring, he makes up in other facets of the game. LeBron's career Finals rebound percentage is 13.4 and his assist percentage is 33.4. In other words, he has grabbed 13.4% of all available rebounds when on the floor (including 22.1% of defensive boards) and assisted on 33% of all made field goals. The latter is especially impressive and goes toward making up for LeBron's slight weakness as a shooter. While his USG% has been 32.2%, four points under Jordan's, his AST% is four points higher. LeBron may be a slightly less efficient scorer, but he recognizes that and shifts those possessions into (possibly) higher percentage shots for his teammates.
If you add their USG% and AST% together, you get remarkably similar numbers: 65.6% for Jordan and 65.7% for James. Although they're not scaled the same, the point remains that LeBron and MJ shared similar offensive burdens, but took slightly different approaches. In keeping with their personas, LeBron looked for a better shot more often while, for Jordan, firing away usually was the best shot. But it's not entirely fair to knock LeBron for his slight lack of scoring without noting that he more than made up for it as a playmaker.
Then there's the question of their opponents. While it's true that players can only play the teams in front of them, it's also a fact that LeBron has faced more difficult competition in the Finals than MJ did. Using Simple Rating System, a measure of team strength, LeBron's Finals opponents have been, on average, 7.31 points stronger than the average NBA team. In contrast, MJ's had an average SRS of 6.84.
However, the difference goes beyond a simple average of the opponents. LeBron faced three teams (2007 Spurs, 2014 Spurs, and 2015 Warriors) that were better than the toughest team MJ had to play (the 1997 Jazz). All three of those teams had an SRS over eight; MJ only faced one team with an SRS that high in his entire playoff career and that team, the 1986 Celtics, swept him.
If you exclude the three juggernauts, LeBron's 2-1 record against the same level of competition as MJ looks a little better. On the down side, the one in that record, the 2011 Mavericks, had the lowest SRS of any team that either player faced in the Finals.
Perhaps more than anything else, that series represents the single biggest hurdle to making any pro-LeBron case. James averaged 17.8 PPG, 7.2 RPG, and 6.8 APG in that series, getting outscored by four players including Chris Bosh and Jason Terry. His turnover percentage swelled to 19.5% and his rebounding percentage was down to 10.6%.
What about advanced stats? While I didn't calculate it, Win Shares will almost certainly favor Jordan, since he has a lot more wins to draw from. However, for these purposes, Box Plus/Minus may provide a better comparison. BPM uses all of a player's box score stats to measure how many points per 100 possessions above average a player was.
For their careers, LeBron's BPM is better than Jordan's, in both the regular season and playoffs. In fact, LeBron is the career leader in BPM in both. However, Basketball-Reference doesn't publish a Finals-only BPM, so I went ahead and calculated it for both MJ and LeBron. Well, kind of.
See, in order to get the final component in BPM, a team adjustment, I'd have had to calculate it for every player they played with in the Finals. So what you're about to see is the raw BPM, and for a much smaller sample size than what we usually use for that stat. It can't be compared to anyone else's BPM and it's not official, but it's a good way to compare the two head-to-head. I should also note that for the league 3-point attempt rate, I used the regular season figure, instead of a Finals-only number like I used for the other inputs. So let's call this stat BPMish.
Enough stalling. Doing the math, LeBron's Finals raw BPMish is 13.6, while Jordan's is 14.4. Even excluding team context and the final score as much as possible, MJ looks like the better player. But it's closer than you thought, right?
So let's return to the question in the headline. By team success, raw numbers, and advanced stats, the case is pretty clear: Michael Jordan was the better player than LeBron James in the NBA Finals. However, is the gap as lopsided as their MJ's 4-ring advantage would indicate? Considering how close LeBron's individual production has been to MJ's, and given that it's come against a higher caliber of opponent, it seems clear that King James deserves more credit than he gets.
It's also important to keep in mind that LeBron's far from finished. MJ was 35 when he won his final title; James is 31 and on a team that is positively loaded in talent in a conference without a clear challenger to the throne.
Now, as LeBron is on the cusp of passing Jordan in games played in the Finals, he is also preparing for his most difficult challenge yet. The Golden State Warriors will be the toughest team LeBron has ever faced in an NBA Finals and they're just four wins away from being able to make an argument that they, not Jordan's 1996 Chicago Bulls, are the best team of all time.
It will take a Jordan-esque effort to overcome them. Fortunately, that's something LeBron is more than capable of giving.
When comparing their finals opponents you should also compare the difficulty of the road to get there... Once again this year lebron gets 5 days off to rest after mowing down a mediocre eastern conference. You would think that rest would provide an edge vs Jordan battling the 90's Knicks, pacers, et al
This is getting absurd and silly, more and more day by day. I can understand people who love Lebron and his game (why wouldn't you, after all he's a great player) but I can't understand why is there a constant need to prove something he isn't. Still, trying to invent, produce, manufacture some evidence out of context through science and mathematics to prove that Lebron is not just better, in this case, than Jordan but now he has even played better in the Finals according to some new stats boxes.
What's the next measurement? When kids drink Pepsi in the arena and when it's raining outside (let's call this stat PSR), Lebron has a better PSR, BPM, SRS, CIA, FBI input than Jordan. Can one please apply some new stats for heart, character, choking, will to win, leadership or even our eye vision of what we have witnessed in the last 30 years of the NBA?
What has happened to America regarding sports? Once upon a time America was all about winners and winners only. Winners were the ones who were celebrated and second place was nothing. Losers used to go home without excuses, work hard and come back for another shot at the title. Nowadays, all you can read and listen about are excuses from those who finish second and people who try to defend them and prove that a loser is actually better than a winner.
Once I read an article backed up with some modern approach analysis which tried to build a case that Jerry West (lost 8 Finals) was better and far more important to Lakers than Bill Russell (won 11 Finals) was to Boston. So I will join this new trend and agree on one thing though, Lebron is way better than Jordan when it comes to losing Finals. At the moment it's 4-0 for Lebron. GOAT!
I understand what you're trying to get at but the stats are painting a different picture. Not only did Jordan win all of his Finals appearances, he scored much more (and more efficiently), took better care of the ball, and outdid James on blocks and steals.
Lovely analysis, and to me, even fits my own experience.
Jordan entered all finals with a healthy team and being in his prime. You can't say that's the case for 2007 and 2015 LeBron.
I'd like to know how badly LeBron's efficiency was tainted by those two years: not having as many good shooters to pass to must have hurt.
My knock on Lebron will always be that he chose to team up with two other Allstars in Miami, and diluting an already weak Eastern Conference in the process. Only by doing that he could overcome the hurdle and win a title. And now he's done it again in Cleveland. Any point about him facing stiffer competition in the Finals, or him having more Finals appearances in a row, will be completely negated by the fact that his road to the Finals have been ridicoulusly easy in recent years.
Plus, the writer of this piece is totally relying on stats to back his points in the analyzis. No deep dive into context whatsoever, which makes the whole thing very empty. You cannot state that because of the SRS stat alone, a team would be better or worse than another team 20 years ago. That's skewing the stats to make it fit your own agenda.
And @Robert: if you're stating that the Bulls were healthy during all their championship runs, you couldn't have been watching much basketball in those years....
Quite wrong about level of competition. And relying near entirely on flawed stats such as SRS, BPM, etc. is also a farce of an argument
As more proof of how Jordan's competition was superior, let's take a look at what happened when a 40 year old Karl Malone and 35 year old Gary Payton played against the 2004 Spurs, right in between their 2003 and 2005 championship seasons.
In the 2003 WCSF, the Lakers lost to the Spurs who went on to win the championship. Enter a 40 year old Karl Malone and 35 year old Gary Payton
In the 2004 1st round, Tony Parker averaged 21 ppg and 8.5 apg on 53%, which was better than Parker's numbers in any Western playoff series during the 2007 Playoffs
In the 2004 WCSF vs a 35 year old Gary Payton, He was shut down to 16.7 ppg on 38%, including Game 5 in which Parker never scored once on Payton.
In the 2004 WCSF, prime Tim Duncan averaged 27 ppg on 65% in the 2 wins
Then in the 4 losses, Duncan had 17.5 ppg on 38% with 4+ turnovers per game, and very rarely scored on 40 year old Malone. Almost all his points in the 4 losses came on Shaq.
The Spurs are the best dynasty of the post-Jordan era, and they got shut down by his washed up leftovers. That says it all about the disparity in quality of competition
Keep in mind that Malone missed half the season due to knee injury, after missing just 10 of a possible 1444 games through 18 seasons, and never missing more than 2 games per season. Payton shot under 40% for the only playoff run of his career in 2004, excluding 2007 when he only attempted 3 shots. These were the worst versions of Jordan's washed up 90s leftovers, yet they shut down the prime Spurs in between their 2 titles and won 4 straight to eliminate them.
LeBron plays against much weaker competition than Jordan
27 of Jordan's 37 playoff opponents had 50+ wins (73% of them)
meaning only 10 total teams were sub-50 wins (27% of them)
and was 10-0 against those sub-50 win teams
LeBron has already played 18 sub-50 win teams in the playoffs as of 2016, out of 37 playoff opponents (49% of them) - adjusting 2012 lockouts for 82 games
so you can imagine how much more free passes Jordan would have in LeBron's shoes in the playoffs. In the 2013 Playoffs for example, LeBron did not face a 50-win team before the Finals
LeBron has never beaten 3 50+ win teams or 2 60+ win teams in any playoff run (even if you adjust 2012 lockout teams for 82 games), but Jordan beat 3 50+ win teams in each of the 1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998 title runs, as well as 2 60-win teams in each of the 1993, 1996, and 1997 title runs. Hakeem also beat 3 50+ win teams in the 1994 title run and 4 57+ win teams in the 1995 title run. Had KJ and Barkley not missed a combined 59 games on the 59-23 Suns, the 1995 Rockets would have been the only team to beat 3 60+ win teams in a playoff run. LeBron's competition does not begin to compare. Whereas LeBron's only 2 championships came in one of the weakest eras, all of Jordan's championships came in the most stacked era.
Jordan also proved how much easier the post-Jordan era is pre-knee injury with the Wizards
In the 46 games that Jordan played in 01/02 before the injury, he averaged
25.1 - 6.2 - 5.3 - 1.5 - 0.5 on 42%
points - rebounds - assists - steals - blocks
Jordan's numbers were also improving as the season went on.
In his last 20 games up to the injury he averaged
27.5 - 6.4 - 5.2 - 1.3 - 0.5 on 44%
In his last 10 games up to the injury he averaged
29.7 - 6.6 - 6.1 - 1.2 - 0.3 on 47%
Before the season started, Jordan was already dealing with
- having to skip 3 days of practice before the season opener in MSG because of fluid buildup in his knee
- recovering from 2 broken ribs (against Artest) and back spasms
- tendinitis in his knee and wrist
- and during the season Jordan had fluid drained from his knee multiple times
So even before his knee injury, he was already in a hobbled state
At first, the Wizards 2001/02 season started off very poorly, as they went 2-9. Eventually, however, the Wizards found their chemistry and turned it around. Even with this slow start, the Wizards made it to 26-21 by the All-star break, and 26-20 in the games that Jordan played before the injury happened. The Wizards also achieved the 26-21 record even with Rip Hamilton missing 5 weeks in that stretch due to a groin injury.
When Rip and Jordan both played, the Wizards were 15-1 in the last 16 games that both of them played before the injury happened.
2001 Wizards = 2nd worst in ppg allowed the year before.
Up to the injury game
2002 Wizards = allowed 92.2 ppg through 47 games (Jordan missed 1 game)
- would be tied for 6th-best in the league with the Pistons.
2002 Wizards = allowed 92.0 ppg in the 46 games Jordan played
- would be tied for 5th best in the league with the Nets
After Jordan's injury
2002 Wizards = allowed 96.8 ppg in the remaining 35 games
- would be ranked 19th in the league
- and fell to 11th in ppg allowed for the overall season.
- Jordan played in 14 of those 35 games
Like Jordan's individual numbers, his defensive impact also improved as the season went on prior to his injury
The Wizards started the season off slow with a 2-9 start
- and allowed 98.4 ppg during the 2-9 start
- on pace for 5th worst in the league
In Jordan's last 35 games pre-injury after the 2-9 start
- the Wizards allowed 90.0 ppg
- on pace for 3rd best in the league
When Jordan and Rip Hamilton played together, they were 15-1 in their last 16 games together up to the injury
- The Wizards allowed 86.3 ppg in that 15-1 stretch
- Easily on pace for the best in the league
- The 2002 Heat were number 1 at 88.7 ppg allowed
Jordan would have far exceeded Lebron's ring total under much easier circumstances
forgot to mention in the previous post - LeBron is 18-0 against sub-50 teams. MJ Kobe (starter years) LeBron and Duncan are a combined 48-1 against sub-50 playoff teams, adjusting lockouts for 82 games - the one loss was from Duncan at age 34 against the 2011 Grizzlies with Manu injured
so 50-wins is an accurate cutoff and debunks the "inflated record due to expansion" argument, since the top players from both eras had equal ease beating teams under the 50-win mark in the playoffs.
Jordan would definitely have won a ring in 2007 and swept the weak East 12-0 against two 0.500 teams and the Pistons with no Ben Wallace or Larry Brown.
Jordan carried an equally bad, if not worse, team as the 2007 Cavs to 6 games against a much better opponent than the 2007 Spurs in the 1989 Pistons. Of course, he didn't make the Finals because he didn't have the luxury of facing two 0.500 teams and a Pistons team without their best defender (4x DPOY Ben Wallace) or their Hall of Fame coach (Larry Brown)
2007 Finals, LeBron's best teammates
Gooden - 13-8-0 on 50%
Gibson - 11-2-3 on 44%
Pavlovic - 10-3-1 on 36%
Ilgauskus - 8-10-1 on 35%
1989 ECF, Jordan's best teammates
Hodges - 12-2-3 on 45%
Cartwright - 11-6-1 on 41%
Pippen - 10-7-3 on 40%
Grant - 9-9-2 on 50%
The supporting cast numbers look similar, but remember that Jordan played great on both offense and defense in the 89 ECF and created much more opportunities for his teammates than Lebron did with his poor play on both ends in the 2007 finals.
Jordan's teammates played under easier circumstances thanks to his amazing play, but still put up the same numbers as lebrons cast. The Pistons were undefeated in the playoffs outside of the Bulls and 22-2 against non Jordan teams in the 89-90 playoffs during their 2 title seasons. The 2007 Spurs were 12-4 in the West before sweeping the Cavs
The 89 Bulls had the worse rebounding and defensive cast as well. The 89 Bulls were 22 of 25 in rebounding whereas the 2007 Cavs were number 2.
The Bulls were only a top 5 defense because of Jordan - evidenced by how he shut down Isiah but Isiah lit up whoever else was guarding him on switches except for G2.
Lebron led the 2007 Cavs in DWS for the playoffs, but footage shows he played poor defense against Parker and in general and that stat doesn't really amount to anything
youtu.be/sjF-hLoCKec
whereas the Cavs inside presence held Duncan under 45%, the 2nd worst he shot in the finals after 2005 against the Pistons amazing defense
With Jordan in place of Lebron you get someone who can shut down Parker and Ginobili and do much better on offense.
Lebron had 36% FG with 5.8 TOpg and 3 of 4 games were in single digits with the Cavs holding SAS to 85 or less in 3 of 4 games. The one game that they lost by 11 in Game 2, Lebron picked up 2 dumb fouls early in the 1st because of bad defense and had to sit out for a while.
Jordan has never had a series with 5+ TOpg and only one series under 40% at age 34 against the Heat in the 1997 ECF.
However that was only due to a one game anomaly where he shot 9/35 in G4 and brought his series averages down to 38.7%. In the 4 wins he still had 30-8-4-2-1 on 43%.
And in that 97 run, Jordan led the Bulls in 5/5 categories after the first round from rounds 2-4 combined (tied Rodman with 133 Rebs or 8.3 rpg) something only Hakeem did for all 4 rounds in 94. Nobody besides those 2 have carried a team in 5/5 for 3-4 rounds. And MJ did it at age 34 while beating 3 56+ teams and 2 60+ teams, Lebron has never beaten 3 50+ or 2 60+ teams in any playoff run. Carrying the 07 Cavs against 3 scrub teams and one good Spurs team wouldn't be a problem.
Jordan never came close to struggling as bad in a series as Lebron did in 07 finals on either end. So he easily would have played much better and led them to the win with great offense and shutting down Parker and Manu
Keep in mind even at age 38 he averaged 25-6-5 for 46 pre injury games, led the wiz from 19-63 to 26-21 up to the injury even with Rip missing 5 weeks (15-1 in last 16 they played together pre injury) and shut down many stars like Vince Pierce Peja Marion Sprewell. Tmac was the only one who had 25-6-5 at seasons end, and MJ was doing that with cracked ribs and tendinitis knees to begin the season, with his numbers improving as the season progressed pre injury.
Add the 04/05 rule changes and he'd be unstoppable on offense while still shutting down top dogs on defense like he did as a pre injury wizard
2008 would be another easy ring. LeBron went 7 games with the Celtics while getting outplayed by Kevin Garnett, shooting only 35.5% FG with 5+ TOpg. It was the amazing defense of Ben Wallace that kept the Cavs alive with LeBron playing terrible
Before acquiring Ben Wallace
- the 2008 Cavs allowed 98.2 ppg through 55 games
- this would be ranked 11th in the league
In the 22 regular season games that Ben Wallace played with the Cavs
- the 2008 Cavs allowed 91.6 ppg
- this would be ranked 4th in the league
In the 2008 playoffs, with Ben Wallace starting every game
- the 2008 Cavs allowed 87.8 ppg
- this was the lowest ppg allowed by any team in the playoffs
- better than the Celtics in the playoffs in OPP FG%, PPG allowed, and Drtg
Jordan would have easily won 2-3 Cleveland rings pre-Miami, and 4-peated with the Heat (probably more, because he wouldnt have had to leave)
LeBron's box score stats look good for the 2014 Finals, as he put up 28-8-4-2 on 57%, although he only had 1 more assist than turnovers in the series. However, as we should know by now, box score stats don't tell the whole story. Now to analyze LeBron's 2014 Finals in full context. LeBron was only productive for the first 2 games of the series. In the final 3 games, LeBron didn't show up on offense or defense, and was completely outplayed by 13 ppg Kawhi Leonard across the board. The majority of LeBron's stats over the last 3 games were padded in blowout situations (being down 15+). LeBron by no means was "carrying" his team in these Finals. And he got outplayed by Kawhi Leonard over the last 3 games
2014 Finals
Games 3-4-5
Lebron scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) being down 15+
Leonard scored 27 of his 71 points (38%) being up 15+
Leonard outscored Lebron 44-30 in non-blowout situations
Leonard 23.7 ppg on 69%
LeBron 27.0 ppg on 55%
(Leonard 14% more efficient)
And again, Lebron stats were heavily padded in garbage time, in non blowout situations Leonard outscored him
Leonard 9.3 rpg
LeBron 7.7 rpg
Leonard 2.0 spg
LeBron 1.7 spg
Leonard 2.0 bpg
LeBron 0.7 bpg
Leonard 2.3 apg with 1.7 TOpg
LeBron 4.7 apg with 3.7 TOpg
Leonard had a slightly better ast:TO ratio
Through games 3-4-5, Leonard scored much more efficiently (and more in non blowout situations) and outrebounded, outstole, and outblocked Lebron with a better ast:TO ratio. He outplayed LeBron in all aspects for the last 3 games.
Game 3
Lebron had 14 points and 0 TO in first quarter, then 8 points and 7 TOs for the last 3 quarters. LeBron had 22-5-7-5 with 7 TOs on 64%, Wade had 22-4-2-2 with 5 TOs on 67%. But over the last 3 quarters, LeBron had 8 points and 7 TOs to Wade's 20 points and 3 TOs. The Heat cut the lead from 15 to 9 without LeBron, after Wade subbed in for him, from the 5:00 to 1:00 mark of the 3rd quarter, but even with that help LeBron still lost.
Game 4
Lebron had 9 points in first half and the Heat were blown out by 19 at halftime. He padded his stats from there, and he did not score on Leonard in the first half.
Game 5
Lebron had 1 FG in 2nd quarter (2:30 mark) to bring the Heat within 5. Then he did not score again until the Heat were down 21 with 4:40 in the 3rd. LeBron shot 1-6 against Leonard this game, according to the article "MVP Leonard Does it All," and the same article states that Leonard shot 65% when guarded by LeBron throughout the series.
Leonard clearly outplayed Lebron over the final 3 games, even with Lebron padding his stats, and Lebron failed to score consistently until after his teams were getting blown out. LeBron did not play well in the 2014 Finals after Game 2, he only built his stats in blowout situations with little chance of putting his team in a position to win. LeBron's 2014 Finals was a repeat of the 2011 Finals after Game 2, the only differences being that LeBron's teammates didn't play that well (though this was in large part due to LeBron's lack of helping the team outside of blowout situations), and LeBron padded his stats to save face. So any notion that LeBron had an "amazing" series, and still lost because of his teammates is false.
Leonard was the Spurs best offensive player in the last 3 games of the series, and his offensive explosion was mainly because of LeBron's overrated defense allowing him to shoot so efficiently on him. As the biggest contributor to the Spurs' offensive success in the last 3 games, Leonard heavily benefited from LeBron's overrated defense, and because of that LeBron deserves most of the blame in the Spurs overall offensive success. It wasn't until the Spurs used Leonard to exploit LeBron's overrated defense that they began their offensive explosion. If he could actually guard Leonard, instead of letting him shoot 65% on LeBron, then it would have been much harder for the Spurs to execute their offense with their best offensive player in that series struggling.
There are quite a few all-time great players who could have replaced LeBron and won this Finals, especially if they were to score when the games were in reach, rather than waiting until blowout situations to deliver. This would have greatly opened up the game for LeBron's teammates. Putting up almost 2/3 of your points in 3 straight games after getting blown out by 15+ isn't going to open up the game for your teammates or take defensive pressure off them, so any lack of help LeBron had was due to his lack of willingness to help them in the first place.
And even when Lebron did have great help from Wade in Game 3 - when the Heat cut the lead from 15 to 9 late in the 3rd quarter after Wade subbed in for LeBron, he still couldn't get it done and the Heat still got blown out when LeBron returned. So even when LeBron had help in this series, he still couldn't take advantage. Next, LeBron only had minimal offensive help in the last 2 games of the series, through 3 games Wade had a solid 18-5-3 on 54%. His production declined in Games 4 and 5 as a result of LeBron not taking any defensive pressure off his teammates until after the Heat were getting blown out, as has been explained above.
Either way, the main points to remember are LeBron's extreme amount of stat-padding in blowout situations and getting outplayed by 13 ppg Kawhi Leonard in all aspects for the last 3 games of the series - having an extremely negative contribution on defense throughout the series, and a negligible offensive contribution in the last 3 games. That alone qualifies LeBron's 2014 Finals as one of the worst Finals performances of all-time.
LeBron has 3 of the top 10 worst Finals performances of all-time, whereas Jordan never had a poor Finals performance, despite playing half of his Finals games from ages 33-35 well past his prime, and against far superior competition.
Even in 1996, his only bad games were Games 4 and 6, and he did the best defensive job by shutting down Payton in Games 3 (stat padding after MJ sat out) and Game 5 and was their best offensive player as well. MJ was the only Bull who showed up on both offense and defense for those 1996 Finals.
2007 Finals
LeBron contributed pretty much nothing in these Finals. His offense was atrocious, putting up 22-7-7 on 36% with 6 TOs per game. His scoring came on terrible efficiency and he averaged almost as many assists as turnovers. On defense, LeBron got schooled and outplayed by Tony Parker, who had 25-5-3 on a much more efficient 57%, and half as many turnovers as LeBron. Regardless of how little help Lebron had, there's no excuse for getting badly outplayed by Tony Parker who isn't even a top 10 PG of all-time. There wasn't a single aspect of the game that LeBron played well in these Finals.
Some may make the excuse that nobody else in LeBron's position would have put up a good performance, but this is a farcical claim. One needs to look no further than the 2007 WCF to lay this theory to rest. Deron Williams, at age 22 and in only his 2nd year (first year as a full-time starter) played much better against the same Spurs team with an even worse supporting cast, and managed to get one win. Deron Williams averaged 26-4-8-2 on 53% and outplayed Tony Parker who had 20-3-7 on 48% in the 2007 WCF.
Box score fans will immediately point to Carlos Boozer's 21-12 on 53% in this series to claim that Williams had much more help than Lebron, but the reality is that Boozer only played well as a result of Williams setting him up with his passing. There is only one series in Boozer's career where he had over 15 ppg without Deron Williams, in the 2013 1st Round against a weak Nets team when he had 17.4 ppg. So the only help Williams had in this series was because of Williams himself. Outside of Boozer, nobody else on the Jazz averaged double figures in scoring during the 2007 WCF. The Cavs leading rebounder in the Finals, Varejao, wasn't far behind Boozer with 10 rpg. After Boozer, none of the Jazz reached 5 rpg whereas the Cavs still had 8.3 rpg from Gooden.
Williams' offensive help was equally as bad as LeBron's; the Jazz shot 33% on shots not taken or assisted by Williams whereas the Cavs shot 32% on shots not taken or assisted by LeBron. On defense, however, LeBron had far more help, as the Cavs held the Spurs to 85 or less in 3 out of 4 games. The Jazz, on the other hand, allowed 100+ points in 3 out of 5 games in the 2007 WCF, and only held the Spurs under 90 once. The Jazz defenders couldn't handle Duncan, either, as he had 22-10-3 on 58%, compared to 18-12-4 on 45% in the 2007 Finals against the Cavs.
So there is no excuse at all for LeBron to have such a poor performance on both ends regardless of how little help he had. Deron Williams had equally bad help on offense and worse help on defense, but still played much better against the same team and with the same defender (Bowen) guarding him. Based on how well a young and inexperienced Deron Williams did under tougher circumstances, there's no reason to believe that several NBA greats wouldn't have vastly outperformed LeBron's 2007 Finals on the same Cavs team, and there are a few that would have won as well.
Jordan himself did, in fact, carry an equally bad, if not worse, team as the 2007 Cavs to 6 games against a much better opponent in the 1989 Pistons.
LeBron's supposed ability to "carry" the 2007 Cavs to the Finals was in reality just a matter of having the fortune of playing incredibly easy opponents in the East - two 0.500 teams and a watered down Pistons team without 4x DPOY Ben Wallace or Hall of Fame coach Larry Brown. The Spurs were the only good team he played in the 2007 Playoffs, and by no coincidence LeBron put up one of the worst Finals performances of all-time against them. If LeBron is going to be praised for beating up 3 weak teams with his supporting cast, you can't backtrack and use his supporting cast as an excuse when he got crushed against the only legit team he played.
2011 Finals
LeBron's 2011 Finals performance was also one of the worst in history. First, you have to consider the large amount of help LeBron received in these Finals. Dwayne Wade averaged a great 27-7-5 on 55% wth 1.5 spg and 1.5 bpg and was by far the best player on the Heat. The Heat defense also did a great job of slowing down Dirk, who shot 42% for the series, though some of those misses were open shots. LeBron had 18-7-7 on 48% for the series. These numbers look pretty pedestrian, but by themselves they don't tell you how bad this performance was.
LeBron averaged 8.9 less ppg compared to his season average, which is the largest regular season to Finals drop-off in history. Next, LeBron disappeared in the 4th quarter repeatedly throughout this series - similar to what Magic did in the 1984 Finals, but LeBron did it with much less impressive averages and against a much lesser team
- Game 2 - Lebron 2 pts, 0/4 FG in 4th quarter and Heat only lose by 2
- Game 3 - Lebron 2 pts, 1/3 FG in 4th quarter and Heat still win
- Game 4 - Lebron 0 pts, 0/1 FG in 4th quarter and Mavs only win by 3. LeBron had 8 pts the whole game
- Game 5 - Lebron 2 pts, 1/4 FG in 4th quarter, and Heat were only down 4 with 35 secs left, before Terry nailed the 3 in the face of LeBron's overrated defense to seal the game
Lastly, LeBron contributed nothing on defense in these Finals (a recurring theme, as the 2013 Finals is the only time in 6 appearances that he played elite defense). Shawn Marion and Jason Terry both exposed his defense. Terry outscored LeBron 18.0 ppg on 49% to 17.8 ppg on 48% while playing 11 less minutes per game. Even with a huge amount of help from Dwyane Wade, LeBron still couldn't get it done in the 4th quarter or on defense, got outscored by Jason Terry even with Terry playing under a huge minutes handicap, and lost to a Mavericks team without Caron Butler who was injured, even though the Heat had the superior supporting cast.
2014 Finals
LeBron's box score stats look good for the 2014 Finals, as he put up 28-8-4-2 on 57%, although he only had 1 more assist than turnovers in the series. However, as we should know by now, box score stats don't tell the whole story. Now to analyze LeBron's 2014 Finals in full context. LeBron was only productive for the first 2 games of the series. In the final 3 games, LeBron didn't show up on offense or defense, and was completely outplayed by 13 ppg Kawhi Leonard across the board. The majority of LeBron's stats over the last 3 games were padded in blowout situations (being down 15+). LeBron by no means was "carrying" his team in these Finals. And he got outplayed by Kawhi Leonard over the last 3 games
2014 Finals
Games 3-4-5
Lebron scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) being down 15+
Leonard scored 27 of his 71 points (38%) being up 15+
Leonard outscored Lebron 44-30 in non-blowout situations
Leonard 23.7 ppg on 69%
LeBron 27.0 ppg on 55%
(Leonard 14% more efficient)
And again, Lebron stats were heavily padded in garbage time, in non blowout situations Leonard outscored him
Leonard 9.3 rpg
LeBron 7.7 rpg
Leonard 2.0 spg
LeBron 1.7 spg
Leonard 2.0 bpg
LeBron 0.7 bpg
Leonard 2.3 apg with 1.7 TOpg
LeBron 4.7 apg with 3.7 TOpg
Leonard had a slightly better ast:TO ratio
Through games 3-4-5, Leonard scored much more efficiently (and more in non blowout situations) and outrebounded, outstole, and outblocked Lebron with a better ast:TO ratio. He outplayed LeBron in all aspects for the last 3 games.
Game 3
Lebron had 14 points and 0 TO in first quarter, then 8 points and 7 TOs for the last 3 quarters. LeBron had 22-5-7-5 with 7 TOs on 64%, Wade had 22-4-2-2 with 5 TOs on 67%. But over the last 3 quarters, LeBron had 8 points and 7 TOs to Wade's 20 points and 3 TOs. The Heat cut the lead from 15 to 9 without LeBron, after Wade subbed in for him, from the 5:00 to 1:00 mark of the 3rd quarter, but even with that help LeBron still lost.
Game 4
Lebron had 9 points in first half and the Heat were blown out by 19 at halftime. He padded his stats from there, and he did not score on Leonard in the first half.
Game 5
Lebron had 1 FG in 2nd quarter (2:30 mark) to bring the Heat within 5. Then he did not score again until the Heat were down 21 with 4:40 in the 3rd. LeBron shot 1-6 against Leonard this game, according to the article "MVP Leonard Does it All," and the same article states that Leonard shot 65% when guarded by LeBron throughout the series.
Leonard clearly outplayed Lebron over the final 3 games, even with Lebron padding his stats, and Lebron failed to score consistently until after his teams were getting blown out. LeBron did not play well in the 2014 Finals after Game 2, he only built his stats in blowout situations with little chance of putting his team in a position to win. LeBron's 2014 Finals was a repeat of the 2011 Finals after Game 2, the only differences being that LeBron's teammates didn't play that well (though this was in large part due to LeBron's lack of helping the team outside of blowout situations), and LeBron padded his stats to save face. So any notion that LeBron had an "amazing" series, and still lost because of his teammates is false.
Some will claim that nobody could have replaced LeBron and stopped the Spurs offense, but that's false. The Spurs went 7 games with the top 10 worst defense 8-seed Mavericks in the first round, so there were definitely holes to be exploited. Next, there are multiple instances where one player singlehandedly has changed one of the worst defenses in the league to one of the best - like Jason Kidd on the 2002 and 2003 Nets and a hobbled Jordan at age 38 with the 2002 Wizards, before his knee injury. And regardless, there's no excuse for getting outplayed by a 13 ppg player in the last 3 games of the Finals in all aspects, and letting him shoot 65% on you for the series as a whole.
Leonard was the Spurs best offensive player in the last 3 games of the series, and his offensive explosion was mainly because of LeBron's overrated defense allowing him to shoot so efficiently on him. As the biggest contributor to the Spurs' offensive success in the last 3 games, Leonard heavily benefited from LeBron's overrated defense, and because of that LeBron deserves most of the blame in the Spurs overall offensive success. It wasn't until the Spurs used Leonard to exploit LeBron's overrated defense that they began their offensive explosion. If he could actually guard Leonard, instead of letting him shoot 65% on LeBron, then it would have been much harder for the Spurs to execute their offense with their best offensive player in that series struggling.
There are quite a few all-time great players who could have replaced LeBron and won this Finals, especially if they were to score when the games were in reach, rather than waiting until blowout situations to deliver. This would have greatly opened up the game for LeBron's teammates. Putting up almost 2/3 of your points in 3 straight games after getting blown out by 15+ isn't going to open up the game for your teammates or take defensive pressure off them, so any lack of help LeBron had was due to his lack of willingness to help them in the first place.
And even when Lebron did have great help from Wade in Game 3 - when the Heat cut the lead from 15 to 9 late in the 3rd quarter after Wade subbed in for LeBron, he still couldn't get it done and the Heat still got blown out when LeBron returned. So even when LeBron had help in this series, he still couldn't take advantage. Next, LeBron only had minimal offensive help in the last 2 games of the series, through 3 games Wade had a solid 18-5-3 on 54%. His production declined in Games 4 and 5 as a result of LeBron not taking any defensive pressure off his teammates until after the Heat were getting blown out, as has been explained above.
Either way, the main points to remember are LeBron's extreme amount of stat-padding in blowout situations and getting outplayed by 13 ppg Kawhi Leonard in all aspects for the last 3 games of the series - having an extremely negative contribution on defense throughout the series, and a negligible offensive contribution in the last 3 games. That alone qualifies LeBron's 2014 Finals as one of the worst Finals performances of all-time.
It's not that hard to extract a player's Finals BPM (or any other stat), if you can manage to record it before the Finals start.
For example, last year LeBron had played 569 minutes thru the ECF; he had PER of 24.8, WS/48 = .181, and BPM = 9.7
He ended up with PER = 25.3, WS/48 = .173, BPM = 11.0, in 844 minutes.
To get from his 14-game rates to 20-game rates, his 275 Finals minutes had to come with PER = 26.3, ws/48 = .156, BPM = 13.7
http://apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8941
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@Nobody Touches Jordan
However, as we should know by now, box score stats don't tell the whole story.
How ironic. You're correct to point this out, and yet you still don't put the box score stats that you use in your posts into context. Take Game 4 of the 2011 NBA Finals, for example. You are quick to post LeBron James's box score stats from that game ("Lebron 0 pts, 0/1 FG in 4th quarter and Mavs only win by 3. LeBron had 8 pts the whole game"), but a review of the film shows a more complete story that took place during the entire series: the Mavericks forced the basketball out of James's hands as much as possible and forced the other Heat players (including Wade) to make plays.
I'll list the plays that took place in the 4th quarter of that game in which James had the ball.
(1) James posts up Jason Terry on the right wing. He is immediately doubled by Dirk Nowitzki. James passes out of the double team, which eventually leads to a wide-open 3-point jumper for Mike Miller. Miller makes the jumper.
(2) James passes the ball out of a Mavericks double-team on a screen-roll with Chris Bosh. This leads to a wide-open midrange jumper for Udonis Haslem. Haslem makes the jumper.
(3) James passes the ball out of a Mavericks double-team on a screen-roll with Haslem. He turns the ball over, but he had the right idea in mind because Haslem was open for a midrange jumper.
(4) James passes the ball to Dwyane Wade to set up a designed play. No significant action took place on this play involving James.
(5) After making a couple of passes in a designed play, James makes a good cut to the rim and receives a pass from Haslem underneath the rim. He is immediately double teamed by Tyson Chandler and Nowitzki. Bosh has a wide-open lane to the basket, but he mishandles a pass from James that hits him in his hands.
(6) James draws a double-team on a transition play and passes the ball to Dwyane Wade, who has a open driving lane to the rim. Wade is met at the rim by Nowitzki, but he still scores a layup.
(7) James receives a pass from Mario Chalmers and finds Chris Bosh at the top of the key for a wide-open midrange jumper. Bosh misses.
(8) James dribbles the ball in the halfcourt and passes the ball to Miller, who is wide-open for a three-pointer. However, Miller doesn't shoot the ball, but passes the ball to Wade. The ball makes its way back to James, who runs a screen-roll with Bosh. The Mavericks show a double-team; James passes the ball out of the double-team to Haslem on the right wing, who then passes the ball to Miller for a contested three-pointer. Miller misses.
(9) James is on the left wing and receives a pass from Wade. In one of the few one-on-one situations that he had in the quarter -- albeit with Nowitzki and Chandler waiting for him in the paint -- James shoots a tough stepback jumper over his defender DeShawn Stevenson. James misses.
(10) James plays point forward in the halfcourt. He runs a screen-roll with Bosh, then he has another one-on-one opportunity against Stevenson at the top of the arc. Jason Terry, who is guarding Chalmers, cheats towards James to help Stevenson. James passes to Chalmers, Terry makes a good close-out on Chalmers, and Chalmers passes the ball back to James. James then runs another screen-roll with Bosh, which draws a quick defensive switch from Chandler. This results in Bosh being guarded in the paint by Nowitzki instead of the better defender in Chandler. James passes the ball to Bosh, who creates a jumpshot and gets fouled from behind by Stevenson. Bosh makes both free throws.
(10) James dribbles into the halfcourt, runs another screen-roll with Bosh, and after drawing another double team finds Haslem on the left wing for a open jumper. Nowitizki does well to close out on the jumper, but it is still a makeable shot. Haslem misses.
(11) After a missed shot by the Mavericks, James gets a pass underneath the Mavericks' basket then fires a fullcourt pass to Wade near the Heat's basket. Wade is fouled on the layup attempt, but he only makes one free throw. The Heat were down 80-82 with 30 seconds left when Wade was fouled.
After play (11), the Mavericks get a clutch layup from Nowitzki to go up by three. The Heat cut the Mavericks lead back to one with a quick driving basket by Wade, but the Mavericks get another two points from free throws by Terry. During the last play of the game, Wade mishandles an inbounds pass from Miller, and the Mavericks win the game.
So, James was directly involved in nearly half of the Heat's 4th quarter plays, and the Heat scored 10 of their 14 points in the quarter thanks to James's playmaking. The Heat also didn't convert another 10 possible points that James helped to set up for his team. The box score says James scored zero points in that quarter, but he was still helping his team. In team sports, you need teammates to win championships. That's a fact, and even Jordan didn't win until he had teammates who did their jobs.
Your posts are full of errors and a lack of context.
@Nobody Touches Jordan
However, as we should know by now, box score stats don't tell the whole story.
How ironic. You're correct to point this out, and yet you still don't put the box score stats that you use in your posts into context. Take Game 4 of the 2011 NBA Finals, for example. You are quick to post LeBron James's box score stats from that game ("Lebron 0 pts, 0/1 FG in 4th quarter and Mavs only win by 3. LeBron had 8 pts the whole game"), but a review of the film shows a more complete story that took place during the entire series: the Mavericks forced the basketball out of James's hands as much as possible and forced the other Heat players (including Wade) to make plays.
I'll list the plays that took place in the 4th quarter of that game in which James had the ball.
(1) James posts up Jason Terry on the right wing. He is immediately doubled by Dirk Nowitzki. James passes out of the double team, which eventually leads to a wide-open 3-point jumper for Mike Miller. Miller makes the jumper.
(2) James passes the ball out of a Mavericks double-team on a screen-roll with Chris Bosh. This leads to a wide-open midrange jumper for Udonis Haslem. Haslem makes the jumper.
(3) James passes the ball out of a Mavericks double-team on a screen-roll with Haslem. He turns the ball over, but he had the right idea in mind because Haslem was open for a midrange jumper.
(4) James passes the ball to Dwyane Wade to set up a designed play. No significant action took place on this play involving James.
(5) After making a couple of passes in a designed play, James makes a good cut to the rim and receives a pass from Haslem underneath the rim. He is immediately double teamed by Tyson Chandler and Nowitzki. Bosh has a wide-open lane to the basket, but he mishandles a pass from James that hits him in his hands.
(6) James draws a double-team on a transition play and passes the ball to Dwyane Wade, who has a open driving lane to the rim. Wade is met at the rim by Nowitzki, but he still scores a layup.
(7) James receives a pass from Mario Chalmers and finds Chris Bosh at the top of the key for a wide-open midrange jumper. Bosh misses.
(8) James dribbles the ball in the halfcourt and passes the ball to Miller, who is wide-open for a three-pointer. However, Miller doesn't shoot the ball, but passes the ball to Wade. The ball makes its way back to James, who runs a screen-roll with Bosh. The Mavericks show a double-team; James passes the ball out of the double-team to Haslem on the right wing, who then passes the ball to Miller for a contested three-pointer. Miller misses.
(9) James is on the left wing and receives a pass from Wade. In one of the few one-on-one situations that he had in the quarter -- albeit with Nowitzki and Chandler waiting for him in the paint -- James shoots a tough stepback jumper over his defender DeShawn Stevenson. James misses.
(10) James plays point forward in the halfcourt. He runs a screen-roll with Bosh, then he has another one-on-one opportunity against Stevenson at the top of the arc. Jason Terry, who is guarding Chalmers, cheats towards James to help Stevenson. James passes to Chalmers, Terry makes a good close-out on Chalmers, and Chalmers passes the ball back to James. James then runs another screen-roll with Bosh, which draws a quick defensive switch from Chandler. This results in Bosh being guarded in the paint by Nowitzki instead of the better defender in Chandler. James passes the ball to Bosh, who creates a jumpshot and gets fouled from behind by Stevenson. Bosh makes both free throws.
(10) James dribbles into the halfcourt, runs another screen-roll with Bosh, and after drawing another double team finds Haslem on the left wing for a open jumper. Nowitizki does well to close out on the jumper, but it is still a makeable shot. Haslem misses.
(11) After a missed shot by the Mavericks, James gets a pass underneath the Mavericks' basket then fires a fullcourt pass to Wade near the Heat's basket. Wade is fouled on the layup attempt, but he only makes one free throw. The Heat were down 80-82 with 30 seconds left when Wade was fouled.
After play (11), the Mavericks get a clutch layup from Nowitzki to go up by three. The Heat cut the Mavericks lead back to one with a quick driving basket by Wade, but the Mavericks get another two points from free throws by Terry. During the last play of the game, Wade mishandles an inbounds pass from Miller, and the Mavericks win the game.
So, James was directly involved in nearly half of the Heat's 4th quarter plays, and the Heat scored 10 of their 14 points in the quarter thanks to James's playmaking. The Heat also didn't convert another 10 possible points that James helped to set up for his team. The box score says James scored zero points in that quarter, but he was still helping his team. In team sports, you need teammates to win championships. That's a fact, and even Jordan didn't win until he had teammates who did their jobs.
Your posts are full of errors and a lack of context.
For me is not even close MJ 6-0 with 6 Finals MVP's and he never let a Finals series go to 7 games. MJ was far more dominant in the Finals and when the team needed him the most.
If you look at the 2007 NBA Finals, yes the Spurs were the favorites but if Lebron would have played better they could have easily won 2 games that were close and not being sweept. He shot just 35% from the field, 20% from 3's and almost 6 turnovers a game and that was after having that great 48 point game against the pistons in the previous series.
2011 Finals for Lebron was the meltdown had James show up the heat would had won that series.
2013 Finals James almost blew game 6 with 2 bad turnovers Ray Allen save the day with that huge three pointer of the corner to force game 7.
2015 NBA Finals although James was undermaned and play great he was very inefficient shot under 40% for the series and despite that they had a shot to winning the series.
In game 1 they were tied at 98, had he made that last shot the cavs would had won the game and the series would have been 3-0 instead of 2-1 and in game 4 what happened James came out flat with 20 PTS on 7-22 and the cavs lost the game. So had Lebron made some shots the Cavs would had won the series.
James also for whatever reason becomes way to passive in situations were the team needs him the most and then is too late to stop the bleeding. James is great but his not MJ. Numbers alone don't tell all the story of a player.
Shut up ivan. What makes you think they woulda been up 3-0 last year had he make that shot in game 1
Nope. No excuses for 2011. Even if he did create opportunities in the 4th, that's no excuse for 8 points in the whole game. For the series as a whole Lebron was garbage, and some playmaking in one 4th quarter in a game where Lebron Was terrible for the game as a whole doesn't excuse it sorry. You also neglected to mention his overrated defense getting exposed for the series as a whole
YouTube
"Shawn Marion exposes lebrons overrated defense"
"Jason Terry Exposes Lebrons Overrated Defense"
"Lebrons overrated defense exposed - 2011 NBA finals"
Nope. My posts are full of documented and historical facts
Oh and Lebron had plenty of help from his teammates in that series. Which is why Wade outplayed him vs both the Celtics and Mavericks in 2011.
The Chosen One scored only 8 points in a Finals game and now we have an explanation it actually was not a bad game. LOL, this is getting better and better. Never have read something like that before, I'm going to archive it in my folder "Lebron Excuses".
William had Lebron made that last shot in game 1 with the score tied at 98 the cavs would have won that game, it does't go to overtime. They would have won the 2 games in GS and they won Game 3 so instead of 2-1 going into Game 4 it would have been 3-0.
This year, the Cavs get another chance at the Warriors, and Mark Jackson in the booth yet again. Can LeBron shake the curse of Mark Jackson and win one for the Land?
@Nobody Touches Jordan
I only broke down the 4th quarter of game 4 of the 2011 NBA Finals to show how absurd it is to look at points scored and conclude that a player did not positively impact his team's chances to win a basketball game. It is possible to positively impact a team's chances to win a basketball game without scoring a lot of points; it is also possible to score a lot of points and not positively impact a team's chances to win a basketball game. This is why basketball analysts do not just use the box score. If you admit this fact, then you should also admit that it is entirely possible that James was helping his team win despite only scoring 8 points.
Your videos provide incomplete and biased analysis of James's defense. First, not every example you had in your videos was an example of bad defense (I counted about only five such examples in each of the Terry and Marion videos). Second, your videos don't show any examples of good defense; unless you made an honest attempt to provide examples of good defense but couldn't find any, I'm going to assume that you conveniently left examples of good defense out of your analysis. Third, your examples account for a very small sample size of James's defense; James played hundreds of minutes in the 2011 NBA Finals and 10 plays of bad defense is hardly representative of a player's defense throughout an entire playoff series. Bad perimeter defense happens to even the best perimeter defenders; as a Jordan fan, you should know this. It should not take much effort to put together a video of "Jordan's overrated defense" from a playoff series in exactly the same incomplete and biased manner in which you made videos of James's defense.
From when can lebron ever compared to MJ in Finals?
A person who loses 5 out of 7 series compared to a person who won 6 out of 6 series.
And what was worse, a person who was the MVP but left the home team join another team.
DOES PPL REALLY WATCH BASKETBALL THESE DAYS?
Why are some of you so impressed by Jordan, anyway? Robert Horry went 7 for 7 in the Finals. Team basketball is clearly an individual sport, and championships are always better than stats. Basketball players play to win the game. It's funny; whenever Horry is mentioned in these greatest basketball player of all-time debates, Jordan fans start with their nonsense about how Horry wasn't the "best player on his own team", then they talk about Jordan's stats like they matter. Only NBA titles matter, Jordan fans. America is about winners. Jordan doesn't compare to Horry, and I haven't even talked about Bill Russell's NBA titles yet.
@ floor 24: why are we so impressed by MJ? Because we do watch basketball, and we play basketball, we know how difficult it is to maintain such high level performance through out the career.
You talking about robbert horry 7 of 7? excuse me, remind me who was the FMVP in all his series? And is this topic about who were better in finals, robert or jordan?
For bill russell, it is no doubt that he's one of the greatest. but his time is like ancient time to me and very few videos can be found. so i dont qualified to comment on his career.
On an unrelated note,
Most regular season games, 30 or more points and no turnovers (probably NBA history)
36 - Michael Jordan
DIRK NOWITZKI
27 - Dominique Wilkins
"Nobody Touches Jordan." Quite a moniker. And how true the statement is when one compares Jordan's strengths against others' weaknesses.
Just at the outset, let me mention that I have always been a Jordan hater. Obviously this "Nobody Touches Jordan" guy (whom I'll call "NTJ") is a Jordan homer, but hopefully I can approach this debate a bit more objectively than he has nonetheless. I certainly don't claim to be a LeBron homer, but I think he's a bit better than this other guy would have you believe. If you didn't know better, you'd think from what NTJ says about him that LeBron is one of the worst players ever, and that there'd be no reason to ever sign him on your team if you had the opportunity, let alone play him.
First off, NTJ's comment that the statistics "SRS" and "BPM" are flawed. All stats are flawed; there hasn't yet been one invented that doesn't have its knocks, and there probably never will be. The stats that NTJ cherry-picked to support his arguments certainly have their flaws as well. I do find it interesting to note that not only is LeBron the career leader in BPM, but he is by a very large margin, an obvious statistical outlier. #2 is Jordan, also by a large margin. This ranking holds for both the regular season and playoffs. The author's attempt to give a BPM for the Finals is, as he mentioned, based on a small sample, and therefore should probably be taken with a grain of salt. I take BPM with a grain of salt anyway because it seems to be more a measure of how much his team depends on the player, and not necessarily of how good the player actually is.
But NTJ doesn't mention how those stats are flawed, he just states that they are. One is therefore left wondering why -- is it simply because it doesn't support the thesis embodied by your moniker? You can't just choose certain stats that support your point and conveniently leave out others; this is what's called "cherry-picking."
Next, an anecdote about how the 2004 Spurs lost to the Lakers in the playoffs, largely due to Karl Malone and Gary Payton, "leftovers" from Jordan's era. Funny, I thought -- and didn't everybody else? -- that the Spurs lost that series more due to Shaq and Kobe. And yet we're supposed to believe that this one series, played during LeBron's rookie season, somehow proves that Jordan's competition was superior? And that it was due to Malone and Payton "shutting down" Duncan and Parker? No mention, I notice, of the Spurs perhaps adjusting their overall game plan for the Lakers, resulting in poorer outputs for Duncan and Parker? No mention of the significant threat of Shaq looming about the paint to deter any Duncan or Parker moves in that direction? These things can't just be swallowed up in the things that NTJ noted.
But let's go on, to the idea that LeBron played weaker competition than Jordan. Just because you have fewer wins during the regular season, doesn't mean that you're weaker competition. The 1995 Rockets showed this. The 1999 Knicks showed this. The 2016 Thunder showed this. If regular-season wins always constituted the level competition, then we'd always have #1 seeds against each other in the Finals.
What's that? The post-Jordan era was easier because Jordan played fairly well for a 39-year-old, and even got progressively better as the season went on, until he got injured? Has nobody heard that players get on a roll on occasion? How do we know he wouldn't have hit a slump during the last 20+ games of the season or so? How do we know he wasn't playing easier competition at the time? And please don't come back to me with quotes of team W-L records. How do we know the team wasn't on a slump at the time? Or even if they were hot, maybe they were beginning to be overconfident. You have to consider these possibilities, instead of just cherry-picking everything.
On to the next thing...of which I wasn't aware: apparently, because top players from since the 90's haven't had any trouble disposing of sub-50-win teams, the league wasn't any more inflated due to the early-90's expansion than it is now. That one fact is enough to dispel the thought that perhaps Jordan had a bit of an advantage because the Bulls were able to hold on to their core over the expansion period, whereas the other great teams that he'd faced before (Lakers, Celtics, Pistons) were falling apart because their great players were aging, injured, and retiring. No, there couldn't have been any advantage: teams with great players are still disposing of sub-50-win teams, as they always have! Though I see little connection between this and expansion dilution...
"Jordan would definitely have won a ring in 2007 and swept the weak East 12-0." Really. Which Jordan are we talking about? Apparently 1989 Jordan, since that's who is talked about in the next paragraph. Why 1989 Jordan, who was 26 and in his 5th season, whereas 2007 LeBron was 22 and in his 4th season? Oh, you don't think that the extra 4 years of experience makes any difference? Or that Jordan's 1985-86 season shouldn't count because he was injured? Or is it just that it makes a more convenient comparison; i.e., more cherry-picking? And by the way, it doesn't matter if you sweep through the Conference playoffs or win each series in 7; what matters is that you win the series. It's not like the team gets penalized in the next series for having to go the full 7 in the previous one, or a ring counts as somehow less because you won the Finals in 7 instead of sweeping your opponent. Jordan's Bulls never swept anyone in the Finals, but they still count as much as if he had. And so it didn't matter how many losses the 2007 Spurs had coming into the Finals, that simply does not necessarily make them a less formidable opponent than the 1989 Pistons were to Jordan's Bulls. Nor does it mean a 22-year-old Jordan, or a 5th-year Jordan, would beat the 2007 Spurs with the Cavs if you replaced LeBron with him.
But you've got to remember that Jordan's 1989 supporting cast was comparable to LeBron's 2007 supporting cast. We know this because we can simply look at their best four teammates' Points-Rebounds-Assists totals and shooting percentages. Since they're about the same, the supporting casts must be the same. Never mind all the other factors that go into the game of basketball, whether recorded as statistics, analyzed further into "advanced" statistics, or not. Oh, there was that little detail about team rebounding also -- notice you forgot that. Oh, well that changes everything! Of course the Cavs would have beaten the Spurs with 1989 Jordan since they were such a better rebounding team than Jordan had in 1989!
As for defense, the 1989 Bulls were a top 5 defensive squad, but that's only because Jordan was so good at shutting down Isiah Thomas. Never mind that they also had Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen, who both would eventually make the All-NBA Defensive Team, each at least four times. "LeBron led the 2007 Cavs in DWS for the playoffs," but that's an inconvenient stat. Let's just ignore that and look at this video instead, which shows a bunch of hand-picked instances of LeBron not able to keep the other team from scoring, but conveniently missing whatever good he did in the series (as noted before by "Sports-Reference Poster.") It's almost as though NTJ watches LeBron specifically for when he makes mistakes, and tries to explain away whatever good he does. And since "nobody touches Jordan," Jordan never made a mistake, and anything that appears to be a mistake has a ready-made excuse.
Jordan, on the other hand, would have been shutting down both Parker and Ginobili at the same time (wow, guarding two players at once! Never saw him do that any other time!) and still "do so much better on offense" than LeBron (keep in mind this is 22-year-old LeBron we're talking about!).
Where were we? Let's see, some more cherry-picked stats...Jordan supposedly single-handedly won the '97 championship. It was "single-handed" because he led his team in the five major statistical categories, against teams with good records? On that one, I'll suggest this: Jordan was basically the entire Bulls offense during 96-98. Everything ran through him, and of course he was the team leader in points, and not surprisingly in assists. On defense, it was a different story. Of course he helped, but the entire Bulls defense was awesome, perhaps one of the greatest of all time. Rodman was once a DPOY and he and Pippen (as noted above) were regular fixtures on the All-NBA Defensive Team. Furthermore, Ron Harper stymied Stockton like the dickens during their two Finals they faced each other. Jordan was often told he could rest on defense because of his load on offense, and ended up guarding third-option players like Hornacek and the like.
Sure, he got a large number of steals and blocks, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's good defense. Furthermore, he was 34 and (unsurprisingly) knew a lot more about the game than LeBron did at 22. He may have been past his prime physically -- although his body didn't take its normal wear-and-tear between '93 and '95 because of his baseball sabbatical -- but probably not significantly.
Conclusion? Jordan had quite a lot of help in 1997, a lot more than LeBron had in 2007, as just about everybody knows. And replace LeBron with Jordan at any time in his career, he's not beating the 2007 Spurs with the 2007 Cavs. The Cavs were simply overmatched, and you can't replace LeBron with anybody and still beat the Spurs that year.
2008? Against the Celtics? More cherry-picked stats of field-goal shooting and turnovers. Prime-time Jordan with the Cavs might have beaten the Celtics. But then again, they might have done worse: the Celtics might have adjusted to Jordan's style of play, decidedly different from LeBron's, and possibly a better matchup for the C's. Recall, again, that LeBron was also only 23. Jordan, at 23, was scoring 63 points against the Celtics...and getting swept. Both Celtics teams won championships in those years. LeBron's supporting cast in 2008 was probably better than Jordan's in 1986. And they also did better against the Celtics, although of course they still lost. Does this mean the 2008 Cavs beat the Celtics with 23-year-old Jordan instead of LeBron? No. Possibly they could have, but I'm not convinced. It's impossible to know, of course, as it is impossible to truly gauge how much of a help each supporting cast is.
It strikes me as a bit odd that NTJ astutely observes, "box score stats don't tell the whole story," and yet uses stats as the crux behind every argument he makes, as if stats are all that are needed. He somehow thinks that his analysis of outside-the-box-score stats pitting LeBron vs. Kawhi Leonard in the 2014 Finals is better. Apparently, the box score stats aren't in his favor for this argument, so he switches over to something else he can find...ah! Here's something! LeBron's padding his stats during blowouts!
Let's let NTJ in on something...just because a team is up 15 points, doesn't mean that the game is over, and that statistics are basically trash time statistics. Did you watch last night's game between the Warriors and the Cavs? Did you notice that the Cavs got up 20 in the first quarter? Did you notice how the rest of the game was just garbage time, since it was a foregone conclusion that of course the Cavs were going to win? Funny, it seemed to me that the Warriors were still trying hard to win, and that the Cavs were still trying hard to hold them off...I have no idea why, since no team could ever come back from a 20-point deficit in the first quarter. The game's over! Why bother playing? Let's just put in the scrubs!
Let's state the 2014 Finals as they were: the best player on both teams was LeBron, hands down. Ask anybody at that time after the Finals were over, that if they were to choose a player from those two teams to start a team with, whom they would choose, and they all would choose LeBron, even with Leonard's great performance in the series. The fact was that the Heat were getting beat in every matchup except for the one with LeBron. As LeBron was running around trying to put out fires on both offense and defense, the Spurs players were benefitting. Most notably Leonard was getting plenty of wide-open opportunities, not because LeBron's defense was terrible, but because the Spurs were consistently a step or two ahead of the Heat. Except for his turnovers, LeBron was still putting up his typical numbers, and for the most part his teammates stunk the place up. Finally, ask yourself this: if you replace LeBron with Leonard, and have a Leonard double playing on the Spurs, do the Heat do any better? I'd be surprised if they won a single game in that Series.
As for replacing LeBron with an all-time great -- the end result is the same. It was not a matter of LeBron being able to guard Leonard. Of course he could. It was a matter of the Heat being unable to keep up with the Spurs' pass-heavy attack. If you put Jordan in for LeBron, I'll give him a possible one more win, but he is not beating the Spurs with the Heat that year. The Spurs won that series because their offense was unstoppable, even against a stellar Heat defense. Replace LeBron with Jordan, or anybody else, and they still can't stop the Spurs. Again, Jordan might have willed the Heat to a 4-2 loss instead, but it's still a loss.
Later, NTJ claims that since "The Spurs went 7 games with the top 10 worst defense 8-seed Mavericks in the first round, there were definitely holes [in the Spurs] to be exploited." I believe that was before the Spurs employed full-time their famous pass-heavy "Summertime" offense, which strategy they were keeping in reserve specifically for the Heat. Had they brought it out before, the Heat may have had time to prepare for it. As for the one-player-changing-an-entire-defense examples...those players had a lot of time to work with the team before getting the defense to change. Even then, I have my doubts that it was really only "one player" changing it; it may also have had to do with the coaching staff, the maturation of the other players, other minor players being added to the team, etc. In any case, changing the defense within a 7-game series during and after game 3 (when the Spurs brought out the new offense) is considerably harder.
LeBron's performance during the 2014 Finals was far from "one of the worst," as NTJ asserts; on the contrary, I'd say it was one of the better ones. (If you ask me, even though they lost 4-1, I'd still say LeBron should have been the MVP, instead of slavishly following the silly notion that the MVP has to be on the winning team.) This particular statement of NTJ's, and his argument behind it, makes one wonder if he thinks that LeBron is actually a poor player who has no business even being in the NBA. I know of quite a few people who would differ with that idea -- namely, just about everybody else.
NTJ continues his outlandish Jordan-homer-ism by claiming that he "was the only Bull who showed up on both offense and defense for those 1996 Finals." Though, of course, Jordan won the Finals MVP, largely because he was popular (and remains one of the most popular players of all time), I honestly thought it should have been Rodman that year. Jordan played fine, as usual, but my own vote would have been with Rodman, and not just because I'm a Jordan hater. Jordan probably would have been 2nd for me. That he was first doesn't particularly offend me, however. To suggest, however, that he was "the only Bull who showed up" is a bit silly. Consider, for example, this article or this one.
Anyway, I'm not going to go through NTJ's analysis of LeBron's 2007 and 2011 Finals; it's just more of the same. Besides, "Sports-Reference Poster" already pointed out that, for instance, just because a player doesn't collect too many box-score stats, he can still significantly affect the game. He noted some "hockey assists" that LeBron had in the 2011 Finals. And perhaps we all saw how Curry affected the Cavalier defense in Game 1 of the current Finals: since they were so focused on Curry, they were able to keep him in check, but most of the rest of the Warriors beat the Cavs just fine.
Some other comments: Ivan, even if LeBron makes that shot at the end of regulation against the Warriors in Game 1 last year does not necessarily mean the Cavs are up 3-0 after Game 3. The Warriors might have been all the more determined to make adjustments to win Game 2. It's a world of difference being down 0-1 (on your home floor) instead of being up 1-0. The Warriors would have treated Game 2 as a must-win.
Finally, the idea that Jordan being 6-0 in the NBA Finals somehow cementing his status as the GOAT really has got to go. For one thing, as "Sports-Reference Poster" noted, Horry was 7-0 in the Finals and yet we don't consider him as the GOAT. Every year, there is one team that wins the Finals, and 29 teams that lose it. Only one of those 29 teams actually gets to play for it, but they all still lose it. LeBron's 2007 Cavs had no chance in the Finals, and as we all (except apparently NTJ) know, nobody else in his place would have won the Finals for them. And yet that loss is of course counted on LeBron's Finals record. At a similar time in Jordan's career, he was nowhere near making the Finals, but even if the Bulls had, they would have been similarly pounded. Why should LeBron be punished because his team actually made the Finals? It's not his fault the Eastern Conference was so pathetic that year. Really, Jordan's record in the Finals should be considered as 6-9, while LeBron's should be 2-10 (and either 3-10 or 2-11 after this year). Somehow, in NTJ's mind, Jordan gets a pass for those first several years his team didn't even make the Finals, and yet 22-year-old LeBron is expected to live up to Jordan's standards of his prime years. So as I implied at the beginning: nobody touches Jordan when you compare his best playing days with another's worst.
I agree with the overall point of this article, that LeBron has been better than he gets credit for in his Finals career. The Mavericks series is the biggest stain on his career, but he shouldn't be judged by this failure alone, especially since he's been so great ever since (like Magic shouldn't be judged for 1984, for example, when he came back and won three of the next four championships).
I'm really excited to see how many more years LeBron can keep this up. If he continues to age well, his all-time marks are going to be scary.
In post #27, bfh529 Says:
makes about 100 valid points.
I am not and never have been a Jordan-hater; fact is, I've never hated any NBA/ABA player during 50++ years of being a "rabid" fan. The only times I've hated one was WHEN they made dirty fouls. (A recent example: I absolutely loved Draymond (most people would love such a uniquely great player) UNTIL he "accidentally" smacked a player, not one, not two, but three times. If I was Commissioner, I'd suspend him for a bleeping YEAR for that crap.
When MJ was leading the Bulls to Chips, I watched every minute - the ONLY time in 30 years of truly-blissful marriage I ever got really pissed at my ever-loving wife was when she was blocking the view of MJ (or insisting that I had to be with the kids instead exactly at that moment).
WHAT I DO HATE IS THE "JORDAN RELIGION"
Tons of fans (particularly who became big fans DURING his run, claim: "Jordan is the GOAT, and always will be!" That's religion, people; it's worship. What in the next 100 years there is ZERO chance that some player will come along and be even a tiny bit better than him? GTFOH
But the problem is far worse than this extreme, though generalized, example. MJ gets credit for the 6 Finals with 6 Chips and 6 fMVPs; he even gets credit for "he would have won 2 more chips if he played"; but he gets no demerits for:
a) Repeatedly NOT making the Finals at all;
b) Occasionally NOT even making the Play-Offs;
c) QUITING, NOT ONCE BUT TWICE, on his team (and worse still, the first time for gambling - something, if he wasn't so important to the NBA, he should have been banned-for-life for (with all his records "deleted").
d) PUNCHING a team-mate in the face! (YIKES!)
In MJ's chronologically 19-year long career, he made the Finals less than 1/3 rd of the time (what that counts for nothing???) compared to
In KAJ's first 19 year, he made the Finals 10 times, more than 1/2 of the time (what that counts for nothing?)
In their playoff-wise 10 best seasons:
MJ was 6 Finals + 4 Not-Finals,
while
KAJ was 10 Finals + 0 Not-Finals.
In most sports, for most fans, and for ALL PLAYERS, making the Finals is better than (way better than) LOSING before the Finals. But with MJ-God, NO!
Another of my biggest peeves with all this:
those Bulls teams had their best winning %s during a period in which the NBA added 6 times in 9 years - the level of play HAD to have been relatively week; consider that that 72-10 team competed against 2 brand new teams & four more who were still mostly decidedly below average - that too counts for nothing? Since then, we've had one team added in 20 years, that counts for nothing either?
fyi, My All-Time GOAT list:
1) KAJ (unique, unstoppable / most-clutch shot; 66% more Great Years & Finals than MJ)
2) Magic (best teammate; 3 more Finals than MJ)
3) MJ (greatest assassin)
4) TD (what more could we have asked from him)
5) LBJ (most complete, top 5 best teammate; should have two more fMVPs than he got) AND MOVING UP ABOUT ONE SPOT PER YEAR.
imo, KAJ should have got the fMVP instead of Magic against Phily; and should have got one reg. season MVP over Cowens.
Notice, I have one player from each position. I feel very strongly that only by dividing each successive ranking-group of 5 players equally among the 5 positions can a fair representation of their value be made.
Sorry, I can't figure out how to edit that post; I left out about Draymond, "smack IN THE PRIVATE PARTS ..."